The American Mystique of the Cowboy Boot with Deana McGuffin and Jes Marquez
[00:00:00] Deana McGuffin: The cowboy boot is the totally American, Wild West thing, and there’s a mystique about cowboy boots that is very eternal.
[00:00:12] Jes Márquez: And there is such an attitude about cowboy boots, about who makes good cowboy boots, and how they’re made. You can’t make a cowboy boot and not have an attitude. They’re bold footwear, period.
So, it’s like, “Well, who do you think you are,” if you’re making them. And “Who do you think you are,” if you’re wearing them. But there’s something so magical and superhero power about enduring the frustration of making cowboy boots.
[upbeat guitar music]
[00:00:39] Emily Withnall: ¡Bienvenidos! This is Encounter Culture from the New Mexico Department of Cultural Affairs. I’m your host and editor of El Palacio Magazine, Emily Withnall.
The word “apprentice” conjures a different time. It is a word that evokes a slower pace. A deeper attention to detail and a devotion to teaching and learning a specific craft passed down through generations. And while it appears that apprenticeships are less common than internships, which invoke a different image and pace entirely, I was delighted to learn that New Mexico Arts has been running a folk arts apprenticeship program for decades.
From weaving to blacksmithing, to ceramics, to drumming, and much more, the program pairs an apprentice learning a specific craft with a person who is a master of that art. There have long been divisions in the art world among those who deem crafts and folk arts to be of lesser value than fine arts.
There are many forces of history, economics, and culture behind these divisions that I will leave for others to hash out. But it is clear in my conversation with boot makers Deana McGuffin and Jes Márquez, that these kinds of debates miss the whole point of art, which is about the act of creating, learning, and continuing to grow your skills in the mediums of your choosing.
Whether you are creating a marble sculpture or a pair of one-of-a-kind boots, the devotion to craft and expression is central. And best of all for artists like Deana and Jes, they get to wear their creations and see their custom-made boots on the feet of clients, friends, and family members. Admittedly, I knew nothing about cowboy boots before going into this conversation.
I enjoy wearing boots, and I even have a pair of Frye boots in my closet, but I’ve never paid a lot of attention to fashion and footwear. And while sitting in the recording studio with Deana and Jes, I wanted to hide my factory-made Blundstones when I saw how gorgeous their handcrafted boots were.
Truly, the audio is not enough to do their craftsmanship justice, so I urge listeners to check out the images and click on the links in the show notes to see some of Jes’s creations. This episode of Encounter Culture is dynamic, riveting, and chock full of fascinating details about boot making and what it takes to devote yourself to your passion.
[guitar music fades from background]
[00:03:29] Welcome to Encounter Culture. Thank you both so much for being here with me. To start us off, can you both introduce yourselves and what you do, where you’re from?
[00:03:39] Deana: My name is Deana McGuffin. I was born and raised in Portales, New Mexico. I’m a lifelong New Mexican. I am a third generation New Mexico boot maker.
My grandfather opened his first boot shop in Carrizozo, New Mexico in 1917.
[00:03:55] Emily: Oh, wow.
[00:03:56] Deana: My father was then raised in Roswell. It took me a while to realize that that’s what I wanted to do and talk him into teaching me, but now I’m a full-fledged boot maker. Been doing it for forty-two years. And retiring. (laughter)
[00:04:11] Jes: I’m Jes Márquez and I was raised in New Mexico, mostly; technically born in Texas, but we moved to New Mexico when I was eleven, so most of my life’s been in Santa Fe County, a little bit of Albuquerque, and I came into boot making, I guess seven, eight years ago.
And I am passionate about this craft of all mediums. I was the kid that would go to Artisan’s. I remember you used to see the python at Artisan’s in Santa Fe and pick up pens and colors and different things, and art projects, and I think there was always another medium out there.
But for me, then cowboy boots is a magical thing that started, and it was like a light bulb, “Eureka!” moment of saying this is my medium, as frustrating as it is. And so, I’ve been really privileged to get to work with Deana amongst my mentors and to come to her at a point where I had a whole lot of questions still, but I knew enough to know what to ask. And we came together because my husband said, “You should go talk to Deana at some point.”
And I said, “When I’m ready. I will talk to Deana.” (laughter) I’m not sure if I’m ready, but he’s always a good manager that way, so I’m like “That’s—thank you, lovely husband for bringing us together for that.” And it started a great friendship too.
[00:05:29] Emily: So, you were both a part of the apprenticeship program, so I would love to hear a little bit from both of you about what the New Mexico Folk Arts Apprenticeship program is; and how did you each learn about it and get involved and paired up through that program?
[00:05:45] Deana: Well, I opened my first shop in Clovis, New Mexico in 1985, and I was approached—somewhere probably ’88, ’89—by someone from the New Mexico Arts Division, and they told me about this master artist and apprenticeship program and wanted to know if I’d be interested in doing that.
Of course, you have to find your own person that wants to do that, or they have to find you, and I had, like I say, just opened up my shop—single parent raising a 10-year-old kid—and I thought the last thing I’d ever want to do in my life is be a teacher, but I needed the money. (laughter)
So, there was a young woman in Portales that worked for a guy that was a boot maker there. He owned a western wear shop and did boot and shoe repair, and she was his top stitcher, and I contacted her and asked her if she was interested, and she was. And so, we applied for the grant and we got it. And I have worked with this program all through the years—taught several people under it. And Jes was the last one that I worked with through that program.
[00:06:56] Emily: So, did you finally take your husband’s advice to reach out to her? Is that how you guys got connected? (laughs)
[00:07:02] Jes: Actually, we had connected a couple of years earlier and did the, “Hello, I’m Jes,” and “Hello, you’re Deana,” and then we started to get to know each other through boot making—and there’s very few women that do boot making, even today. And Deana really was the beginning of making the complete cowboy boot, not just doing top stitching.
And so, there’s a couple of us across the country and we were had started talking a little bit on Zoom calls and so it was like, why don’t you come on over again? Let’s have the New Mexico talk again. And slowly I had gotten some skill sets, sort of (chuckles), from two different other mentors.
And so that’s what brought it up. And I have to say, it was the first time I had this great mentor. I had Deana to say, “Hey, if you want to do the program, I’ll work with you.”
I didn’t have to knock on a door. And you know, you hear that story from people, you’re like, “Wow. How did it work out for you? I feel like I’ve been really volunteering and trying really hard,” and for us, I said, “Okay, I’m gonna put it in. Let’s do it.”
[00:08:13] And we got it, and it really made me feel so great that every skill set on boot making has come from not leaving New Mexico at a time where early on in life, I’m thinking I need to go somewhere else to figure this natural career path out—or some normal career that I was looking for.
And it was just this opportunity to do this program here in New Mexico with Deana. And it seems like Indiana Jones on a couple of levels, because the people that I’ve learned from are no longer available to work with. And that’s what Deana just said: Jes is the last one. And I thought, “Okay, thank you.”
Because that makes me feel extremely humble and grateful in that way that anybody in Santa Fe is going, “Let’s all practice gratitude.”
And for me, I did have a very humbling gratitude moment getting to work with Deana for sure.
[bright guitar music and maracas fade in and out again]
[00:09:16] Emily: Can you tell us about the Zozobra boots?
[00:09:18] Jes: The Zozobra boots are my first Cuban heel, and I built those with Deana and we went through, as part of the grant project—it was one of the pairs I wanted to do with her because it was a hundred years and it’s crazy unique and I really like making boots about New Mexico.
So I, I don’t do oil derricks, I don’t do— (laughter)
[00:09:40] Deana: And Longhorn cows!
[00:09:41] Jes: And that’s the only thing. I won’t, I won’t ever make an oil derrick boot. It just—I don’t know how much money you’d have to pay me to make a couple of boot themes that I might not touch, but almost anything else if it hasn’t been done.
And I had never seen it before. I thought it’d be cool, and that would be a great opportunity to work with Deana. And the cool thing was, she said she was going to let me—she was going to watch me last the Zozobra boots, ’cause I had them ready to last when I got down to her.
And she says, “I’m not going to say anything. I’m just going to sit here, and you’re going to show me how you last a boot, ’cause I do it a little differently, but except I’m going to say this about doing this.” (Deana laughs)
[00:10:15] So I really liked that that was such a community aspect to doing the grant program—was doing the Zozobra boots, getting to work with Deana on a pair that was like, I’d done half of it; and then do all these other parts with her and build upon that. So I was like, it’s only Zozobra one hundred and it happens to be the year that I got to do this. And it was a New Mexico boot, so we had to do it.
And I also—because of all of this, I had an opportunity to share a pair of my boots I made for my mother-in-law, of the Santa Fe Opera, because my mother-in-law had gone—she went to the Santa Fe Opera every summer. She passed, and I just got this email about—a couple weeks ago—about this pair of boots.
And so those are going to be coming up in the summer on a display. They’re going to be part of the Art in Public Places Project in the summer, sometime in June 2025.
[brief string music begins in background]
[00:11:07] Emily: Through New Mexico Arts.
Jes: Yeah.
Emily: Oh, okay. Cool.
[music fades out again]
[00:11:08] Jes: So I’m really thankful to be a part of this area, and this community, and to have learned everything in New Mexico without leaving the state. So I’m in it to win it and I know Deana will be watching. (laughter)
[violin and guitar waltz interlude]
[00:11:34] Emily: So Deana, you said you came to this thinking that you were not interested in teaching—and then you taught for many, many years. So did your perspective on teaching change?
[00:11:46] Deana: Yes, it did. It was a progression, but of course, see—when I grew up, the only thing that women could be was housewives and mothers or teachers or nurses, or maybe a secretary.
And I didn’t want to be an elementary school teacher, and I hadn’t really thought of teaching in any other manner, you know? And this gave me the opportunity to explore that. And, I just finished up my last private student last week. She was a local gal from Albuquerque, and she was number fifty-eight.
[00:12:19] Emily: Who taught you how to boot make?
[00:12:21] Deana: It was my father.
[00:12:22] Emily: Okay.
[00:12:22] Deana: Yeah. I’d been trying for about a year to talk him into teaching me to make boots, and he kept giving me all kinds of excuses, that I didn’t have enough upper body strength.
And I thought, you know, “I’ve been branding cattle and painting houses and all kinds of stuff, and carting around five-gallon cans of paint. I think I’ve got enough strength.”
But it wasn’t until I left my ex-husband, (laughs) he decided my daughter and I needed to come home and be taken care of, that he finally agreed. I don’t think he ever thought I’d do it. He thought I’d probably just bail after a while, but I stayed with it.
[00:12:59] Emily: In your teaching, was there anything about his teaching that you kind of used also, or did you have your own style?
[00:13:05] Deana: Oh, absolutely. Dad was a very good teacher, and he was a very open teacher. He never had any problems telling anybody how he did anything, and he was just one of those super craftsman people.
I changed things in certain ways, but the thing that I learned most about teaching through all these years is that not only you have to show people how to do what you’re trying to teach ’em to do—but you also have to learn and be aware of how they learn it, because everybody doesn’t learn the same.
That’s a real challenge sometimes in itself.
[00:13:43] Emily: Yeah. So Jes, you said that you didn’t feel like you could reach out to Deana until you knew enough. When did you start boot making and how did you know that you knew enough to reach out to Deana?
[00:13:57] Jes: I don’t know if I knew enough to reach out to Deana, but the interesting things about boots—maybe this is coming from homeschooling, is that you figure out a way to learn, and there’s no book to teach you the process of boot making.
You can go over to YouTube and learn how to make a deck. You can do—work on a car. Other people can help you with those machines. But boot making is so intricate, so specific about the room for error and some of these things that become a feel. “Well, that’s really a feel thing,” and Deana would say that to me.
So, starting with the shoemaking kind of people, it was very informal. There was no official lesson. There was no, “Hey Jes, how’s it going? Well, go home and work on that.”
[00:14:44] It was, no specific accomplishment. Other than that, it was a personal drive. And every time I watched, okay, I’m watching it, how this is being held, the boot is being held. I’m watching at the finisher. How is the heel being sanded? How are you holding it in your lap? The insole; how are you using a knife?
And I’m thinking to myself at those moments, “I will remember this forever, like a photo,” and I took a lot of photos and a lot of video, and I went home and spent a lot of time crying, and a lot of time trying, and a lot of time saying, “I quit! I’m never doing this again,” while I’m doing it.
I got one machine, the vintage, 1940s Singer that my mentor had sold me. You need to start getting the equipment. So, I did that a la carte. That meant that I could go home and start working on tops. I couldn’t get the tension right on the machine. I said a lot of terrible words in front of that machine. (laughter)
I had never sewn before, but I used to go to the shop of the shoe repair and just sit there and stitch for a couple hours. It wasn’t a regular class, and so it was just osmosis.
[00:15:57] And then somebody else had said this too, about boot making: “You will learn through osmosis because everybody that learns boot making will learn from a unique one-to-one path. They will never learn it in the way that everybody else learned it, and they will learn it from different teachers that were available at that time.”
And suddenly those doors kind of close, but a lot of time is alone, and it isn’t easy to make boots. And Deana and I both attest—there’s a total difference in looking at a cowboy boot on an Instagram post and then going the actual experience of making it, the inside of the boot.
And Deana’s famous quote, one of your quotes, or your dad said this: that your boot starts on the inside. And that’s really important. And so, you start to deduce your mistakes and go, “I’m never gonna let that happen again.”
But the other thing Deana told me too is that nobody’s made a perfect boot, “Or if they have, I’ll send them a card.” (laughter)
[00:16:51] And that hasn’t happened either. And there is such an attitude about cowboy boots, about who makes good cowboy boots and how they’re made, and how factory boots are made. So, there is this—you can’t make a cowboy boot and not have an attitude. They’re bold footwear, period. And people understand what they are.
So it’s like, “Well, who do you think you are,” if you’re making them. And “Who do you think you are,” if you’re wearing them.
[00:17:15] But there’s something so magical and superhero power about enduring the frustration of making a cowboy boot. And it makes me feel more connected to other makers when they actually admit the certain machines that we have all struggled with and the certain hand work that you might have had a mistake—and how challenging that is.
And so, Deana and I—I think were very organic how we approached it and the opportunity for her to say, “Yeah, I’ll work with you.”
And the thing for me, as I learned the Mexicano way—and that’s really weird for me, because there’s no bridge, this puente, this bridge between a Mexicano style boot, and me being the whiny güera girl and having the opportunity to get certain information—that when I went to Deana, “Well, I don’t know why you’re doing it that way.” (laughter) “Well, if you’re gonna do it that way… Well, do it how you’re gonna do it.”
And I think even when I post something too, I think about this, I’m thinking it’s not just fans of boots.
[00:18:18] If it’s a casual person looking at it, they’re, “Oh, wow, that’s so cool that you’re doing that.”
And again, it’s a humbly cool thing to share. It’s visually engaging. It’s so many neat things that you’re doing with your hands away from technology, generally speaking—and that’s kind of this neat attraction to it and sort of a renaissance in it. But at the same time, it’s incredibly challenging to get to that point and you’re going to have to spend a lot of time quietly.
And I hate to be—when you start getting older in life and you remember what it was like when people were telling you, “Well, that’s a competitive industry and that’s really difficult to do.” “Well, I don’t know if you’re gonna find a market.” “Well, good luck.” “Well do you even know if figured this out?” and for me, boot making is like, I’ll probably die at one of the machines. (laughter) I’m in it, okay?
[00:19:07] Deana: I was very impressed when I really started to get to know Jes because she’d already made, what? Twenty pairs of boots or so—
Jes: Something like that—
Deana: —before we ever started working together and she figured out how to make a one-piece wrap around top, and I’ve never made one of those. (chuckles) I’ve never even figured out how to do that.
She’s an incredible pattern maker and I thought, well, if she can do that, she can learn to, you know, take what she knows and what she sees—and with what I can teach her, she’ll be an incredible boot maker.
[banjo music]
[00:19:46] Emily: So, I’m noticing that you’re both wearing cowboy boots. Did you make the boots you’re wearing?
[00:19:53] Deana: (laughs) Uh, yeah, so we did. I often, when I’m introduced as a boot maker and people look down and said, “Oh, did you make those?” I often say, “No. I bought ’em in Juárez.” (laughter) I said, you know, just because, what do you mean, did I make these boots?
[00:20:07] Emily: I don’t know anything about cowboy boots, so I’m gonna be upfront. So I’m very curious about the styles. Both of you are throwing out these terms that I have no idea what they mean. Can you talk a little bit about the boots you’re each wearing?
[00:20:21] Deana: This is the traditional boot with the seam on the inside and the outside here.
[00:20:26] Emily: Okay.
Jes: It’s a side pipe.
Emily: So, I can see your boots, but listeners will not be able to. Would you be willing to describe the boots that you’re wearing?
[00:20:35] Deana: Well, these are probably some of the most plain-Jane pair I have. It’s the last pair I made for myself. It won’t be the last pair, but it’s the last one that I’ve made to date.
They’re a brown, rough-out leather on the bottom and a hunter green top with the brown piping, and they’re just a plain stitch top. I’m fairly well-known for my really fancy inlay work, and I never was really the best of stitchers. I did okay, but there’s a lot of people out there that can do incredible stitch work.
Mine was passable. But inlays and overlays and fancy work was always my forte, and that’s what I’ve spent most of my career making.
[00:21:17] Emily: Interesting. All right, so what’s a one-piece wraparound then?
[00:21:21] Deana: It gives you more of a canvas to work with because you don’t have the side seam going up the side. It gives you more of a canvas to do your design work.
[00:21:30] Emily: I see.
[00:21:30] Deana: But they’re extremely hard to fit, I think. Where your foot slips into the boot.
[00:21:35] Emily: Yeah.
[00:21:36] Jes: Well, the process of assembling the boot is a little bit different. Inside a cowboy boot heel is something called the counter, and it’s a stiff piece of rectangular leather that lines the inside of the boot and kind of gives it that stability.
Yeah, right there. On the back of the heel there. And so that gets stitched in differently when you do a top like this. But I think one of the most important things too, about making boots and how they look on the inside—is your seams. How sanded, and I think one of the things I got, this is a nerdy element to boot making, but it’s important—was the sanding of the counters.
These pieces of cardboard. So, they should taper a little bit before you sew them in, because if they’re not, you’ll actually have a little bit of a seam so that somebody’s ankle could feel that. So, when you’re fitting somebody’s foot, this goes into your craftsmanship that you’re experienced enough to know not to do that, that you’ve sanded that down, and again, it’s kind of a feel.
And you go up to a huge machine with a bunch of sanding wheels and you start kind of, looking like an artist or (laughs) somebody that knows what they’re doing, to sand it to a certain taper before you put it in. But the side pipe boot is the traditional look. I do think you can build them a little bit faster.
[00:23:04] Deana: Oh yeah.
[00:23:04] Jes: Because if I do—this is technical, but when I put the heel, the counter in, it has to flare out just a tiny bit. But that will also affect the last. The boot last is the form that the cowboy boot is built on. The traditional boot lasts were made out of wood. And Deana, you’re pretty much pretty solid on using wooden lasts.
But then around, I don’t know what year was it, sixties or seventies? Yeah, it’s these hard plastic boot lasts started being made, and that’s how all boots are made, whether they’re factory or handmade, you’ll use a boot form and shape that to the person’s foot, but how high the instep is—because a boot does not have laces.
[00:23:51] This is where fitting people gets really gnarly, because a boot can never be adjusted like a tennis shoe or any kind of tie boot. Even a chukka boot with two or three holes and lacing, you could, “Ah, it’s close enough,” right? But when it’s a cowboy boot, the foot has to pop in. And it’s supposed to have a ‘pop.’ (laughter)
I don’t know. There’s videos about this that they don’t make boots, but they’re boot fans, aficionados of boot making, and they’ll go, “You know it fits just right when the boot will pop, your foot pops into it,” and you’re like, all right, I’ve aced that. You don’t want it too tight, but it should be relatively tight.
So those are these little nuances that you spend a lot of time going, “Am I getting it right?” before you move on to the next step. It’s not really that you create a boot. You build it, like construction.
[00:24:43] Deana: That was what you were saying about what dad was saying, what he always told me. It’s the look of your boot that starts on the inside while you’re doing the insole work and all that stuff, and the counterwork when you’re building the tops and everything, you’re cutting this down, either with the sander or a knife to shave it off, to make it thin enough there so that the next layer that you put in fits in there smoothly and you don’t have all this material there.
My dad made incredibly lightweight boots. I mean, they’re featherweight. You’d just pick ’em up and think, “Oh my God, these things are so light.”
You go to a store and pick one up and you’re like, “Dang, these things are heavy.” That’s what all that’s about, is just going from the inside out.
[guitar music fades in and PROMO]
[00:25:31] Emily: Do you ever wonder who coordinates public art around New Mexico, or how the Governor’s Awards for Excellence in the Arts are chosen? Or who runs the new Artist in Residence program at the Historic Sites?
New Mexico Arts supports these programs and provides funding for art services throughout the state, including Arts in the Military, Poetry Out Loud, the Folk Arts program, and arts and cultural districts. To learn more, visit nmarts.org.
Some things you can find on the internet and others, not so much. Putting together a publication as interesting and beautiful as El Palacio Magazine is hard work, but it’s well worth the effort. The articles we cover—ranging from artist profiles you can’t find anywhere else, to impressive archeological discoveries, to histories of events in New Mexico that are underrepresented in our state’s archives—offer important and insightful writing about topics you definitely won’t find on the internet.
I’ve been writing for El Palacio for a long time, and now as editor, I may be just a little biased. But if you love New Mexico, you’ll love El Palacio. Subscribe at elpalacio.org/subscribe. I guarantee you won’t want to miss an issue.
[guitar music fades back out, end PROMO]
[00:27:01] Emily: So, Jes, your boots have dinosaurs and palm trees on them.
[00:27:05] Jes: So, these have—blanking his name now, the guy in Jurassic Park, and he goes, “Clever girl.” And he realizes he’s being hunted by the raptors and that they’re about to get him. Muldoon. [Robert] Muldoon! (laughter) 1993, okay?
I rode the Jurassic Park ride at Universal Studios, like the week after that ride opened. You go on a little boat up to the top, and all the dinosaurs, animatronics. I was all into animatronic dinosaurs and probably still am, and I just remember that, and I like the “clever girl.” (dinosaur noise)
So, it’s a tall—I think these are about fourteen inches and they have I think a two-inch scallop, which is at the top of the boot shaft.
Whether it’s a stovepipe—it would be flat all the way around—or it can have a scallop. This one is a basic two-inch scallop. I did change the tongue shape, which is where the vamp attaches to the boot. And it is kind of like a round point toe.
[00:28:11] They are the Jurassic Park boot that—we just had this idea, and I wanted to teach myself this type of top and I needed a boot to practice on. And, come on! Everybody still loves dinosaurs, and so it was just a fun boot.
Yeah, these, if you wear these out, it’s different than when you’re toned down. You have your, like, everyday boot. You’re just wearing a cool pair of boots and it’s always fun to say, “Hey, I made those.”
And then there’s like the statement jewelry that people, “It’s a statement piece of jewelry.” And so statement boots—it’s really interesting.
I was dropping a friend off at the airport, and I was wearing one of the fancy, the fancy pairs, and my husband’s like, “Look, they’re coming over. They’re coming over.” And like, “No, they’re—oh, hi.” (laughs)
And it’s a really neat way to connect with people because you work by yourself a lot.
[00:29:03] And you’re frustrated by yourself a lot. And then you go out, and you connect with a client, or you’re wearing a pair and you go out—and suddenly you’re talking to people.
I always thought my icebreaker was dogs, talking to people about their dogs. And now it’s—you go out in the boots, somebody will come talk to you, and it’s a real interesting way of making friends. (laughs)
[00:29:22] Deana: Oh, back in the leaner years, every now and again when I didn’t have any work, I’d put my fanciest pair of boots on and come up to Santa Fe and walk around the Plaza and hand out cards. Same thing in Old Town in Albuquerque, you know, drum up a little business.
[00:29:37] Jes: And you have to think about that—this time of not having this internet of how we’ve been able to connect as makers.
Because you were talking about the catalogs too—the supply catalogs, how you knew other makers existed, and sometimes they weren’t really that far away. But you didn’t have that instantaneous, “Oh, I’ll just send them a message.”
[00:29:58] Deana: Yeah.
[bluesy guitar and drum riffs]
[00:30:10] Emily: So ,what did you learn from Deana?
[00:30:12] Jes: I learned, well, I cried. (laughter)
[00:30:15] Deana: And it was all right that you cried. It was all right.
[00:30:17] Jes: It was all right that I cried. I do think Deana really shines teaching, especially after she’s taught as much as she has. I think heel building was massively useful for me. The way that Deana builds a top, there’s a couple different things that you do on your top patterning—the little fringe.
[00:30:37] Jes: She cuts this little fringe at the back.
I learned also to consider my materials a little differently too, because I came to Deana after a boot maker named Jimmy Ayers passed in the last couple years. His widow was ready to divest of everything. You knew—you knew Jimmy? A couple—everybody knew of Jimmy in the boot world ’cause he was kind of a hoarder on three hundred acres in Estancia (laughter) and he had picked up supplies since the eighties.
He said when I met him, “I’ve got fifteen thousand pairs of boot lasts out here.” And then he is like, “Every once in a while we go out into the yard, we grab up an armful, we bring ’em inside,” and they had been sun baked since Deana’s life in the nineties. Yeah, you knew this?
[00:31:24] Deana: Yeah, I saw them in the nineties. (laughs)
[00:31:25] Jes: Then—so I had gotten a whole lot of supplies and you know, you gotta filter through ’em.
You can’t say no. I had to say yes.
It’s Saturday. “Hey, do you guys want to come back out and pick up another load of stuff?” And it was like, “Yes, we will be out there this morning. Okay!” And we would grab more supplies.
I had a couple interesting things from Jimmy that I should have probably not used, but I used them on a pair of boots for me.
One of them was the welt. There’s this little thin piece of leather that goes around the boot and it’s hand stitched on the inside, and it’s one of the challenging parts of making boots—and it will lead to how well the rest of the process is going to go. It’s critical. It’s time consuming. It’s strength in the hands. It’s a feel thing—the way you pierce holes in the leather. Not too deep, not too shallow.
And it’s the part that kind of goes, “Maybe I don’t really wanna do this.” So I did it on a pair of boots to work with Deana through her pattern style. Let’s just say it didn’t work well when it got to Big Bertha the Sole Stitcher.
[00:32:32] Jes: And that led to tears, and doing it again, and “I’m quitting” again. But I’m—no, I don’t ever mean that. I just mean it as a personal release to say that. (laughter)
But the curved needle stitcher, it’s six hundred pounds. It’s basically a sewing machine on steroids. It’s the most intimidating, miserable thing that ever was born into existence.
[00:32:53] Deana: Big Bertha is an intimidating machine. It took me a year of running her when I was working with my dad before my heart quit beating hard every time I turned her on.
[00:33:02] Jes: It’s something that you look at and you know you’re gonna have to face it again, (laughter) no matter what, but I feel there’s at least one other boot maker that I have connected with—he was just man enough to tell me that that was his nemesis. That he had struggled with it.
And I have to say that that felt like such a quality community experience to know that I wasn’t alone. (laughter) Because otherwise it’s like, “Hey, I’m all kicking it out here and I’m making boots.” And it’s, it’s something that is inherently part of cowboy boots.
And so you’re like, okay—knowing that machine. You know, looking at Big Bertha, getting to sit with Big Bertha alone, and then Deana’s like, “I won’t watch you.”
It was just, yeah, those were my terrorizing moments because—but that’s what helped bring me up a little bit. That and doing the half-sole repair, because I had never done that before.
It’s classical repair work to be able, and Deana did say. What do you say? You do the best half soling…?
[00:34:05] Deana: at least in the state. If not the country, I think. (chuckles)
[00:34:08] Jes: And that was true because—this is the interesting thing about boot makers, is they’ll look at other boot makers’ work and you know they’re seeing your flaws.
Since you said you didn’t know much, Emily about boots—
If you’re looking at these, you can just go, “Wow. Yeah, those are great.”
Emily: (laughts) Exactly.
[00:34:24] Jes: You show these to somebody else in boots, they might go, “Yeah, I see you did that a little bit.” “That’s not—didn’t come out quite perfect,” or “You should have done it a little differently,” or “I can see you have a mistake,” this flaw that’s just inherent in handcrafted work.
Those are some of the things that I definitely was able to pull out with Deana and to ask these questions.
[strumming guitar music and strings fade in]
[00:34:56] Emily: So, on average, how long does it take to make a pair of boots?
[00:34:59] Deana: Generally, it takes around forty hours of hands-on working time to make a plain-Jane pair of boots. My signature pair of boots, my Day of the Dead boots, I have over a hundred hours just in the inlay work before I started putting them together.
So I mean, you can put as much time into it as you want, but typically speaking somewhere between thirty and forty hours of hands-on working time.
I think the fastest I ever made a pair of boots was six days.
[00:35:26] Jes: That’s not a fun way of making boots. You don’t wanna burn out and then hit some aspect of doing the process and not be ‘on,’ because I always said this, you couldn’t do, like, a Jackson Pollock thing. When you approach boot making, you can’t just go, “I’m just gonna go out there and sling paint. I’m not really present right now, but I’ll just kind of proceed.”
You need to be clear and ready to proceed in the steps to make them.
[00:35:49] Deana: Yeah. ’cause sometimes you sit down with that stitcher and you start stitching and you’re going, “Oh man, I’m not even on today.” And you feel it. You know it. And I’ve gutted my way through it and regretted it later because the quality of the work was not as good.
[00:36:03] Emily: The next big question I have is, why boots? Why cowboy boots? What is it about this particular art form that is so compelling to each of you?
[00:36:13] Deana: The mystique of it, you know—and I think for the most part, the cowboy boot is, like, the totally American Wild West thing, and there’s a mystique about cowboy boots that is very eternal.
It goes out of fashion for a while, but they always drift back in. So, it’s an American mystique that rings a bell with everybody, just about.
[00:36:39] Emily: But you were drawn into it because of your family, or did you have your own interest also?
[00:36:45] Deana: Well, actually I wasn’t really very interested in it, but my ex-husband’s sister-in-law got onto me one time and said, you know, “Here you have this person that really has this beautiful craft, and you’re not learning that. What’s the matter with you?”
And I got to thinking about it and I thought, you know, she’s right. He tried to teach me leather crafting when I was kid. But I just didn’t have the patience for it.
By the time I was ready to learn, I was in my thirties, and I knew more about what I didn’t want to do than what I wanted to do, and I thought I was at the time that I had the patience to do it.
[00:37:18] Emily: What about you? What launched you into cowboy boots?
[00:37:22] Jes: I think it was reclaiming Santa Fe a little bit. It hit me one day. My mother-in-law had a book on cowboy boots, and I was looking at it, and I thought, “I’m gonna do that when I have time,” and she kind of propelled me to go ask, you know, “I know somebody,”—okay, well I could try and get into that door. And I thought, if I can get through one—okay, if I can get through two.
And I love it because it is sort of this infinite possibility of expression. I never saw myself as part of the fashion world, and I thought it was such a compelling way. It’s low tech. And everybody understands, like you said, Deana, this mystique of the cowboy boot.
And I know what I want to do with it. My thing was I came to it—I’m gonna make a hundred pairs of cowboy boots. I’m still on that track right now if anybody joins me. I feel like I had tried so many things, like nonprofit world, doing things for myself, just like I’m self-employed, trying so hard with all these other avenues of life. And I think when I came into the cowboy boot world, I’m just here for me and I’m gonna make this happen.
[00:38:34] And so I was like, “I’m gonna make a hundred pairs of cowboy boots that are never seen before. And if anybody shows up, great. And if they don’t, I’ll just wear ’em out myself.” I don’t know. I’m not saying completely went through. We’ve all gone through these times in life where it’s almost a strange therapy too.
And I think Deana and I have talked about that, that people that came in to learn from her—there’s something inherently comforting. I don’t want to sound like a Santa Fe new age or something—but you know, it’s comforting that you could learn this and you spend a lot of time concentrating on it. So in a way, I like the hyperfocus of it. I like that it’s the same process every time, but every pair is going to be a unique experience.
[00:39:14] Emily: And do you think that you will mentor someone?
[00:39:18] Jes: Yes, you teach boot making to another boot maker. You have to mentor somebody. You don’t have to, but because somebody took the time to mentor you at one time or another, yes, you should offer the knowledge because cowboy boot knowledge—the making of it, is an oral tradition and it truly is passed one-on-one to the next generation or the next person interested in learning.
It’s an art and a trade, and you really need somebody there with you. And I think the greatest thing about this program was that it gave me the opportunity to work one-on-one. There were no interruptions. There was no other customers walking in. It was just Deana and me to go, wait, it’s quiet. I could concentrate, and actually remember and ask questions as we went along. And that gave me a lot of time to hone those things.
So, yeah, I’m so thankful for what I have had shared with me that yes, it continues in this tradition.
[00:40:16] Deana: That’s why we’re lucky though, ’cause New Mexico has so much of that with all kinds of different folk arts—what people refer to as folk art. And I think that all these programs are terribly important now more than ever because, all these people that come away from college with these huge debts and no jobs out there—more entrepreneurs, you’re having to create more of our own work.
So I think it’s very important that these programs remain in place for all these younger people coming up now
[00:40:46] Emily: With many master boot makers retiring and dying, is this a dying art form?
[00:40:54] Deana: No, it’s not. In fact, I think there’s more people interested in it now than ever before. When I began, I started my apprenticeship with my dad in 1982. It was kind of a dying art. There weren’t too many of us younger people coming into it, and myself and another woman from California were the first women to really come into it that did the whole thing.
You know, typically women did top stitching and stuff, and I’m sure there were some out there that did the whole thing. We just never knew about it. No, I’ve seen it really within the last decade anyway, has really, really picked up. There’s a lot more interested in handmade footwear of all kinds. Not just boots, but shoes and tennis shoes and all kinds of things.
No, I think there’s a healthy resurgence. And I’m happy to see it. Glad I’ve been a part of it.
[00:41:43] Jes: I do feel like that’s why we’re here today too—is I was really happy to be a part of this podcast because there is not that much documented when the boot maker dies and they are master boot makers—and that knowledge dies when that person is gone.
So yeah, it’s really important knowledge to share and there are a few of us that will continue (laughter)
[00:42:05] Deana: well, and I’ve turned down two people this week. Saying, “I’m sorry, I’m retired.” And if I were to open my email, which I don’t very often (laughs)—as you all probably know—there’d probably be five or six more inquiries on there.
I get probably five a week. So, I mean, there’s a lot of people out there that still wanna learn.
[00:42:24] Jes: Cowboy boots are kinda like the Cadillac leather good. And so I think that’s what really adds this extra layer of dedication, because you’re not gonna do every leathercraft.
[strumming guitar music begins to fade into the background behind conversation]
When you do cowboy boots, it’s incredibly consuming. And so, to say you want to pursue—like Deana’s got this cool leather vest on and you wanna make something like that. But then what happens is you start getting a backlog.
[00:42:45] Deana: People now that inquire about my boots, I send them to you because—
[00:42:49] Jes: And that’s why I’m getting more of a backlog.
Deana: Yeah. Yep. (laughter)
Jes: And I already had a couple people (laughs) and it, yeah. I just wanna sit in a padded room like this and make boots. And I want somebody to bring me enchiladas. and I’ll be the happiest person in the whole world and finish all these things, about writing about boots too, that I want to keep going with.
[00:43:08] Emily: Deana, what are you looking forward to in retirement?
[00:43:14] Deana: Winning the lottery. (laughter)
I just really wanna start doing what I wanna do and not what I have to do, to make a living, I’m still gonna have to work and make a bit of a living. There’s some other leather things that I want to do.
One of the reasons I am retiring is because I’ve got arthritis in my hands and I’m just not as strong as I used to be, and it hurts to make boots these days. I can do other things that don’t hurt as badly.
I’ve done this for forty-two years. I’ve loved it. It’s been a good ride for me, but I’m also a little bored. I wanna do something else. I wanna make new things.
[00:43:53] Emily: What other things do you wanna make?
[00:43:55] Deana: Oh, I just—all kinds of things. I like to do belt carving. I didn’t make this vest, but I’d like to learn to make leather clothing and I wanna learn tailoring and stuff like that.
And that’s a whole lot easier to do on your hands than making boots. Making boots is hard physical labor, and I’m done with that and I wanna play a lot of golf.
[00:44:17] Jes: And you can make posole.
[00:44:18] Deana: Yeah. And posole. I cook posole. (chuckles)
[music increases in volume briefly before fading away]
[00:44:28] Emily: To learn more about the New Mexico Arts Folk Arts Apprenticeship program, visit n arts.org where you can read about artists who have participated in the program, and where you can access the application. If you have a craft you want to teach or learn. And while Deana is embracing retirement, you can find Jes’s work on Instagram where her handle is @bootmakernewmexico.
We’ll provide links in the show notes. Thanks for listening.
[music fades into theme music and closing credits]
[00:45:14] Emily: Encounter Culture is a production of the New Mexico Department of Cultural Affairs.
Our producer is Andrea Klunder at The Creative Impostor Studios.
This season is produced and edited by Andrea Klunder and Alex Riegler with additional editing by Monica Braine.
Our recording engineers are Collin Ungerleider and Kabby at Kabby Sound Studios in Santa Fe.
Technical direction and post-production audio by Edwin R. Ruiz.
Our executive producer is Daniel Zillmann.
Thank you to New Mexico artist “El Brujo” D’Santi Nava for our theme music.
For a full transcript and show notes, visit podcast.nmculture.org or click the link in the episode description in your listening app.
I’m your host, Emily Withnall.
The New Mexico Department of Cultural Affairs is your guide to the state’s entire family of museums, historic sites, and cultural institutions. From Native treasures to space exploration, world-class folk art to ancient dinosaurs, our favorite way to fully explore is with the New Mexico CulturePass. To see everywhere CulturePass is accepted and reserve yours today, visit nmculture.org/visit/culturepass.
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