Uplifting Cultural Knowledge with Navajo Picture Book Author Daniel Vandever
[00:00:00] Daniel Vandever: It required more work from me, but it was work that my community deserved. There is a hunger for these types of stories. If we weren’t invisible, we were being misrepresented. And so it’s good to see contemporary Navajos and contemporary settings. “Oh, my grandma wore her hair that way. And she used to have cows and would use binoculars to look for them,” or, “Oh, I went to boarding school and this is something I got into when we were doing chores. I used to ride the buffer and I used to imagine I was riding a bull.”
And you hear those types of stories and I think that’s where the value comes in because people make those connections and who knows where that leads?
[00:00:38] Emily Withnall: ¡Bienvenidos! This is Encounter Culture from the New Mexico Department of Cultural Affairs. I’m your host and editor of El Palacio Magazine, Emily Withnall.
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When I picked up Diné children’s author, Daniel Vandever’s books from the library, I was flooded by memories of reading to my own kids every night before bedtime. I remember helping my oldest kid learn to read by emphasizing the rhythm and rhymes in The Foot Book by Dr. Seuss and the way my kids and I cheered when the animals came together to keep the bullying rattlesnake in check in Roadrunner’s Dance by Rudolfo Anaya, and I remember reading the book I most loved when I was a child to my own children, Blueberries for Sal by Robert McCloskey. To this day, I can see the gorgeous blue and white illustrations and can’t help repeating the sounds in the book when the blueberries hit the bottom of the tin pail, “kuplink, kuplank, kuplunk!”
While reading Daniel’s picture books Fall in Line, Holden! and Herizon, I was pulled into the world he created. For Daniel, imagination is central to who we are and how we learn. In both books, the illustrations carry the story and allow for readers of all ages to bring in their curiosity, delight, and discovery.
On the surface, each book can be read as a story in which the protagonist takes a spectacular journey, but underlying each story is a sobering history.
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[00:02:24] In Fall in Line, Holden! Daniel alludes to the way that schools can often push conformity, but he was especially thinking about the Indian boarding schools of the 19th and 20th centuries. The U.S. Government’s Indian Civilization Act Fund of 1819 resulted in the creation of more than 526 boarding schools. Government agents abducted Indigenous children for the purpose of committing cultural genocide through eradicating their languages and cultures. The government stated goal was “Kill the Indian, save the man.”
Likewise, in Herizon, which notably has no words, a story about a magic scarf is also imbued with a larger story about Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women [MMIW]. This epidemic is one that has led to a disproportionate number of murders and disappearances of Indigenous women and other Indigenous people. Advocates describe the crisis as a part of the ongoing legacy of removal, violence, and erasure of Indigenous people in the U.S.
To be clear, the dark themes in Daniel’s books are not central or immediately apparent to young readers. As Daniel shares, he believes these stories should be shared by family and community members in age-appropriate ways.
Engaging in dialogue about some of these underlying themes goes a long way towards teaching important history and building literacy skills. But whether readers simply enjoy the imaginative tales or begin to see some of the themes underlying these stories, there is something for everyone in these books.
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Welcome to Encounter Culture. I’m so excited you’re here to talk with me today. Before I dive into my many questions for you, do you want to introduce yourself?
[00:04:37] Daniel: Yá’át’ééh, my name is Daniel Vandever. Irish nishłį, Kinyáa’aanii bá shíshchíín, Irish dashicheii, dóó Táchii’nii dashinálí. Ákót’éego diné’é nishłį.
[Hello, my name is Daniel Vandever. I’m Irish, born for the Towering House Clan. My maternal grandfather is Irish, and my paternal grandfather is Red Running Into the Water Clan. This is how I’m Navajo.]
So I’m a Navajo individual. I’m originally from a community called Haystack. I’ve been moving around quite a bit ever since then. Grew up in Grants and then Missouri for some time, and now I’m currently residing in Tucson, and so I’m a Navajo children’s picture book author.
[00:05:03] Emily: Before we dive into some of those questions specifically about your books, what inspired you to become a children’s book author?
[00:05:11] Daniel: I think it was really out of necessity. It was never my intention to, kind of, walk this path, but in 2017 when I published my first book, I was working in higher education. I worked ten years as a communications director for Navajo Technical University, which is one of the two tribal college and universities on Navajo [Nation].
And so I think at the heart of any higher education institution is to graduate your students. And a big part of our work was really diving into the data, looking at the student experience, figuring out how can you not only retain your students, but how can you also help them graduate in a timely manner?
And so in that work, we were finding that a big barrier and obstacle for our students was requiring developmental coursework, specifically when it came to reading, writing. And math. And so I think there’s data that says about two-thirds of tribal college students come in needing developmental coursework.
How, which if you know, really delays your graduation, you often have to pay out-of-pocket—it’s not covered by Pell Grant—all of these obstacles that work against students’ favors. And so we did work in dual credit and finding ways to get our reach at a younger age, but I knew it had to start earlier.
And so I really got into seeing the value of children’s books, not only as a form of entertainment, but also as a tool to improve literacy, to talk about identity and history and culture and all of these beautiful things that I think historically have been absent when it came to Native People. And so. I got into it, and it’s kind of funny, I’m a children’s book author now I’m out of higher ed.
And this is what I’m doing for the most part.
[00:06:53] Emily: I love that background. I’m curious if you grew up with children’s books and picture books, and if you did, what were some of the memorable ones?
[00:07:04] Daniel: Yeah, I was actually fortunate to have books in the home. My mother was a special education teacher. She also started her own daycare, and so we were fortunate always to have books in our environment and around us.
I myself wasn’t really into reading. (laughs)
[00:07:20] Emily: (laughing) That’s funny.
Daniel: I wasn’t really into the books. The ones that I were drawn to were a lot of the I Spys and the search-and-finds, and books that you could actually kind of interact with. What I was drawn toward, since my mother did start a, a childcare center in Grants, called Small Wonders Daycare, was story time or circle time.
Where they would maybe tell a story, but primarily my mom would be on the guitar and we’d sing tunes, you know? And it kind of built my love for words and rhythm and all of these things that, you know, you get with interacting in those types of spaces. And so those are the stories I was drawn to.
Now that I have a son at home and a daughter, both under three. Reading some books with them, you know, Chicka Chicka Boom Boom came back to me and I was like, “Oh yeah, this book!” And it wasn’t something that came naturally to me. It wasn’t something that always held my interest. But it’s something that I found over time and especially, you know, having kids now and seeing the value of having books in the home, I think that’s necessary for a lot of people. And, and books have wonders and to open up your world and your imagination. So I think that’s a big part of what I do too. You know, I’m not just here writing books to tell stories, but how do we put it out into the community so it’s making an impact?
[00:08:36] Emily: Right. Right. Yeah.
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[00:08:47] So speaking of that, then I want to talk about your first book, Fall in Line, Holden!
I actually have a copy here, and for the listeners who cannot see it, the cover is a line of students walking down a hallway, but there’s one student by himself kind of looking off in a different direction, and the title of the book is Fall in Line, Holden!
So I’d love to hear about your inspiration for writing this book.
[00:09:14] Daniel: (laughs) Yeah, I always joke around with the kids. It’s not, “Fall in line, Holden.” There’s an exclamation at the end of it. So youtre gotta say, “Fall in Line, Holden!” It’s almost like you’re getting yelled at or being reminded of something.
You know, when I started this book, there was really kind of three inspirations that rose to the surface. It started as a project I wanted to do for my nephew, who is Holden. Rather than purchasing him something, buying him V-Bucks or a toy, I thought it might be cool to create something for him. And so I wanted to write a story that really kind of spoke to imagination, being who you are, valuing yourself, identity, all those things.
Especially ‘cause he was coming into the phase where he was going into the school system, where oftentimes those things are hampered in a lot of ways. And so I wanted to write a story that encouraged him to be who he is.
It also had my own backstory. I’m a Vandever. Vandevers are always at the end of the line when it comes to lining up single file ,where you’re kind of out of the reach of the teacher. And so, I often got in trouble falling out of line and not always paying attention and letting my mind wander.
All of those things that, you know, it’s very easy to label somebody a troublemaker when they do those types of things, but do they just see the world a little bit differently? Do they have imagination that’s carrying them off? And so I wanted to bring that to the story.
And then the third layer, I think, is speaking to my dad’s own history. He went to boarding school, which I know has a lot of connotations to a lot of different people and what that means.
[00:10:42] But for Native People, it was really a means to assimilate, detach Native People from their identity. And so I wanted to be able to at least address that history.
Growing up, I didn’t necessarily hear it outside of maybe our own home, and I felt it was necessary to have space where that could be talked about, that history. And maybe not going into such detail as like, talking about my dad getting his hair cut or being punished in various means, but at least having the space where a grandparent or a parent could read to their kid and then bring in their own history and whichever the way they choose to introduce it. And so I know it’s a story set in the Indigenous Nation and it talks about Native Americans, but I think it really is for any kid that’s in the school system today. As you see cuts to things like arts or language or PE or music, these things that really kind of foster and encourage the imagination and creativity.
So those things go, I think, we need more people to be like him and fall out of line and, and, and kind of stay true to who you are. And so, yeah, that was the third layer that kind of all went into that story.
[00:11:48] Emily: Yeah. Yeah. And so also for listeners, Holden is, you know, seeing all these creative things that are happening, you know, seeing witches and seeing dragons and (laughs)
[00:12:00] Daniel: Right. It’s a story about a boy who’s simply marching from class to recess as their class is going to play. And whereas everyone’s in single fire line passing kind of the every day, missing the beauty of art up on the wall or a game of dodgeball happening, or cooks in the kitchen or janitors joking in the closet, Holden’s imagination comes to life when he sees these various places and sees, you know, witches brewing a brew rather than making muttons stew or, you know, astronauts floating in space rather than being in the computer lab.
And so it’s really trying to encourage, you know, if you have a creative imagination and you see the world in that way, your entire journey to recess could be recess in its own sense.
Not even a boarding school’s walls could hold that in. And so that was a big driver of the story.
[00:12:46] Emily: I love knowing about all the different layers, and I’d be curious to hear a little bit about how either you have kind of brought in that history of boarding schools, when you’ve gone to different events or whatever, or maybe ways that you’ve heard other parents and how they handle that.
Because that’s, I mean, I can imagine that’s a very heavy topic to bring up with kids, and so I’m curious about the different approaches maybe people take with that.
[00:13:12] Daniel: Yeah. Well, I’ve been fortunate with this book to not just only read to schools, but I’ve been able to read to museums, colleges, high schools, middle schools.
A lot of people have been able to attach themselves to it. And you’re able to find a way to kind of, bring up such a heavy history and topic based on the audience. Oftentimes it’s drawing connections, backs to my own upbringing, and I also just provide space for individuals to figure out when they want to jump into it, too.
I ask a lot of questions as I read, guiding questions. A lot of what’s gonna happen, predicting, things of that nature. And as I pause and, and make this story kind of interactive, that’s when you get people saying, “Oh, this is what happened to me,” or, “This is what I remember.”
And it’s kind of funny when you talk about it and leave that space open, you might get some of the negative aspects that we’re all familiar with.
[00:14:04] But a lot of people say, “Hey, I had a good time in boarding school because of this.” Or, “A lot of the skills I have today in cleaning ovens and take caring people, they’re serving me today.” And so, you hear those types of stories as well.
I think that’s the great thing about this is I don’t go into detail about all of those things that my father experienced, but it provides space where somebody could bring that in if they so choose.
And so, my own family history is kind of weird and unique in that I have a grandfather who’s a Navajo Code Talker. So, during World War II he was using the Navajo language to help in time of war, saved millions lives and all that stuff.
But one generation removed from him was my father who was in school, who was then being punished for speaking that same language.
And then my generation, where my father really encouraged us not to learn Navajo and go off in Missouri or go learn in these spaces. So, you get that Western education and then you advance in that way, thinking that that’s how it’s supposed to be.
And so you know, you have that history and bringing to it. It’s just having the space now where you talk about it and it’s gratifying in that it’s serving that way. And hopefully it could be used as a means to heal, because I think if we are to move forward as a population, as a people, there has to be some type of healing before we collectively move forward, for the benefit of all of us.
So, and so.
I don’t know. I think that’s the benefit of a children’s book, of what more intimate kind of conversation could you have with a family member, parent grandparent then at bedtime where those conversations could happen? So.
[00:15:31] Emily: I mean, I really loved when I read through it, how on the surface it seems—it seems simple, but there’s so much there. But I love that idea of just imagination, and the power of imagination ultimately. And what we can do with that.
[00:15:48] Daniel: And I hoped to do a lot of that in the visuals, showing the contrast from the bland of the boarding school to when you’re in Holden’s imagination and everything comes to light.
Throughout the whole story, he is the only one that’s in color. Playing with the colors, I think had a big impact on it. The words being written in rhyme and cadence I think adds to the tone of being in a boarding school. So you’re like almost marching in the quarters. You know, “as class ends and recess begins, we all fall in line!”
And that helps with literacy, but it also adds to the tone of the story and what it kind of means. And so all that thought and detail went into putting it together. And it might seem kind of simple and the illustrations can be kind of bland in a sense, but I think the emptiness of it all speaks to the emptiness of what boarding school actually did to people and kids.
And so, I think that with Secretary Haaland’s report and a lot of the news of bodies being dug up across the country and up into Canada, it’s current news and it needs to be talked about. So, I think this is a nice at least bridge where you could read this story but then also have that conversation, because it has to happen at a early age, in my thought.
I think there’s a lot of complex problems in this world that require outside-the-box thinking. And you know, it could start with this children’s book.
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[00:17:08] Emily: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I should have read it out loud ‘cause I definitely heard the cadence in my head silently, but I think it would’ve had a bigger impact if I had read that out loud.
But I was sitting in my office, so that might’ve been awkward. (laughter)
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Was it hard to come up with that rhythm and, and rhyme?
[00:17:33] Daniel: Well, to me it felt natural and I think that came from my training at circle time in Grants, New Mexico, courtesy of Small Wonders Daycare. (both laugh)
But even growing up, you know, I think that was kind of part of my household. My brother was kind of un rapper. I dabbled in it here and there, and so we always had some type of rhyme in what we’re doing.
It was when I started doing research and started thinking about like pairing and syllables and all these things that it kind of got crazy, especially as I added to the story once I knew that there needed to be thirty-two pages, so I need to add a couple more side ventures and how do I write the rhyme and fit it with what’s already in place? So that’s where it got kind of difficult. I read somewhere when I was researching this book about rhyme and a lot of people said, “You know, you should probably not, ‘cause oftentimes it could go really bad—”
[00:18:24] Emily: Yeah. (laughs)
[00:18:25] Daniel: “—If you don’t do it right. But if you do have rhyme, just make sure it contributes to the story.”
And so, because I wanted to sound like a march and then rhyme and a cadence, it added to them marching through the corridors, which I think also hits you as a reader and you feel it, in a sense.
And so.
[00:18:42] Emily: Yeah, that’s great. I’d love to know too about the illustration. How did you come up with it and do you have an art background or?
[00:18:50] Daniel: Oh, not at all. (both laugh) I actually got a journalism degree. I went to school in the University of Missouri.
[00:18:57] Emily: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:57] Daniel: I was gonna start out at a magazine, but, you know, three thousand words end up seeming kind of daunting.
And at Mizzou at the time, they had moved over their advertising program almost, and put it in their journalism program and labeled it “strategic communication.” And so, they had creating ads and things like that and writing quick was what drew me to it. And so, as part of that program, you also not only had to write copy, but often get into the graphic side of things ‘cause we had to. Put together our ads.
And so I got into layout design and then dabbling in the Creative Suite. In Illustrator, you start creating shapes. And so, when I started this book, I was probably at the lowest I’ve ever been because I graduated college, and it was 2009 right after the housing market.
And I was working for a nice advertising agency and then that happened and then everything kind of went away. And so, I was actually in a call center when I started this, and it started with simple lines and doodles as I was constantly answering calls and um. I just started doing the layout.
Here’s the line, here’s the movement, here’s how I want them to move throughout the space in the school ‘cause it was just for my nephew at this time. And from there, from my training at Mizzou, I was able to put it into my programs, creating the shapes, and then I always knew that I wanted some of the emptiness in it, which allowed me to take away parts so I didn’t have to illustrate as much, (laughs) which was nice.
I think what really helped me was working in advertising and knowing how you move eyes through. Pages or documents or billboards, creating that same type of movement within this story, I think helped—thankfully, ‘cause I was doing it myself.
I was able to pass it along to Salina Bookshelf. It’s pretty much packaged and that art director was able to kind of refine it from there. I thought they were just gonna be placeholders of like, “Here’s how I envision it.” Maybe you have somebody come in and draw really nice kids with detailed faces, but I think they kind of saw the beauty and kind of how it worked as-is.
[00:20:57] Emily: And I’d love to actually have you talk a little bit about Salina Bookshelf and who they are, what they do, what it was like to work with them.
[00:21:04] Daniel: Yeah. Well, Salina Bookshelf is a multicultural publisher out of Flagstaff, Arizona, and they really specialize in Navajo and Hopi stories and I just got linked to them by chance.
I was in graduate school at UNM. I was getting a degree in community and regional planning and I just so happened to be at a party where their art director was. And a friend introduced me, and he said, “Hey, this is what I do.” And I said, “I have a children’s book that I’ve been working on.” And he said, “Just email it to me and we’ll see what happens.”
And I did that, and not even a week later, they were having me out there to Flagstaff to talk about it. And I think they’re hungry to tell contemporary Native stories. It shows us in present settings and all the beauty that comes with that. They’ve been amazing to work with, especially with Fall in Line Holden!, but even mentoring me beyond that, I think they’ve been Heaven-sent, really.
The process was really eye-opening too. I eventually got into self-publishing, but really kind of seeing how they operated as a traditional publisher and what their network was and who they were connected to helped me out in a lot of ways too and, and how they operate, the connections they have and getting it into schools.
And so I know right now there’s a big movement across the nation where larger publishers are starting imprints, telling Native stories, but a lot of them are powwow and a lot of pan-Indianism type of topics, which I think do relate to certain tribes, but not necessarily Navajo. And so, you know, their staff, their editor, their art director, are all Navajo.
When I first started this, it was a great, late LaFrenda Frank who I was working with, and so it was nice to work with Navajos in getting these stories done so they understand the sensitivity behind the content and the care that goes into the detail of how you bring up certain topics.
And so I think they’re rather nicely positioned and a great resource to the people of the region.
[00:23:02] Emily: So, I want to jump to your next book Herizon, which was nominated by the New Mexico State Library to represent New Mexico at the National Book Festival 2024. And it looks completely different. It has no words. So I want to talk about all of those things. (laughs)
So, it’s story by you, Daniel, and then it’s illustrated by Corey Begay. So, I’d love to hear how and why you decided to make a story without words, and then how you worked with Corey to illustrate this wordless picture book.
[00:23:39] Daniel: While I was fortunate with Fall Line, Holden! to be invited to a lot of schools to do readings and interact with the kids.
And I always really try to be engaging when I read. So, asking the questions, having the go up and point at certain things within the story—but there always seemed to be in every class, everywhere I went, even with the adults, a group to be kind of standoffish, and didn’t engage with the story as much. I wanted to find a way where I could engage them as well.
And I think there’s a lot of beauty that comes with wordless books and the space they allow the imagination to roam. And to describe characters, describe settings, describe plots based on their own experiences and their own knowledge and history. Perhaps bringing in their own cultural experiences and language as well.
And so being able to engage readers of any experience or age was something that really drew me to it, especially in that I really wanted to dedicate this story to the voiceless in the classroom, as I had described with the kids, but also in the home and the community. I think there’s a need to at least provide space for others to speak rather than me, and so I wanted to at least draw out a framework of what the story is, but then allow that opportunity for teachers, me as a author, to meet students where they are and to allow others to be a part and participate in this story.
[00:25:09] And so fortunately Corey was actually the art director at Salina Bookshelf who I worked with for Fall in Line, Holden! And so I went to Corey just because I knew him, I knew his family. He was raised by a lot of women, like I was, that was his environment and he understood the significance of a story like this.
And so I was able to go to him, tell him the idea. I always tend to start off with sketches and actually put the book on it together and just saying, “This is what it’s gonna be and how it could flow. Go ahead and let it go.”
And so, I was fortunate enough that he was able to put it together rather quickly and within under a year, it was done.
And I ended up winning an award with the American Indian Library Association as well.
[00:25:56] Emily: Oh, congratulations!
Daniel: Yeah. Yeah, it was, it’s, it’s taken me a lot of places.
(Music plays)
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[00:28:11] Emily: So, for listeners, can you kind of summarize what the story is?
[00:28:14] Daniel: Yes, Herizon is a story about a girl who is tasked with helping her grandmother retrieve a flock of sheep with a magic scarf. And it’s not just any scarf, but it’s a Másání scarf or a Sani scarf. So, you might see these, especially across New Mexico and Arizona, this floral pattern design.
As this girl embarks on this journey to save the sheep, the grandmother gives her this scarf to help in her journey. And so, as she’s crossing what seems like the entire Four Corners, (laughs)—‘cause she visits Monument Valley, Canyon de Chelly, Little Colorado River, Mount Taylor here in New Mexico—it helps her get to those places and it transforms, just as it transforms her, on this journey.
So. It’s a little bit of magic to it. I think all grandmas have magic in it, and that’s kind of what it represented, was passing on this knowledge and these traditions to the next generation. And so.
[00:29:06] Emily: Yeah. So, when you read this—I mean, I don’t know if you have read this with a group of children, but do you invite them to help tell the story? Like how does that work without the words?
[00:29:16] Daniel: Right, well, often it happens on the tail end of Fall in Line, Holden! And so, you hear about Holden and how he used his imagination to break the mold and see the world in a different light. And so with Herizon, I’m able to actually put it to use and then they get to apply what they just saw within Fall in Line, Holden!
And so, I always tell them that just like Holden, you have to use your imagination. You have to put on your looking goggles and read what you see. And so, I’ll start with the cover. Typically asking them, “What do you see? What do you notice, and what do you think it means?” And obviously they’re drawn to that big air balloon that we’re all familiar with here in Santa Fe and in New Mexico.
And so you see that it’s a story perhaps about traveling somewhere. And there’s maybe a little bit of magic to it when you think about movies like with The Wizard of Oz and hot air balloons. But, you know, in reading it, they kind of break it down.
You see the sheep and the sheep herders below. And so this is probably gonna be a story about sheep, and then something in the distance. You see a Southwest landscape, and so Herizon isn’t spelled as you typically see it. It did get adjusted to be spelled “H-E-R-I-Z-O-N.” So, I often draw the readers into the title or the only word that’s appearing within the book, which is misspelled, ironically.
But I think it gives more power to this concept of a horizon or what could be, or this is what’s gonna happen. Or not only is it, you know, we’re Father Sky meets Mother Earth, but it’s this thing about opportunity and what’s gonna happen.
And when I was writing it and I kind of got it going, I think we were in a unique period in time in history where we saw the first female Vice President, elected; the first African American female nominated to the Supreme Court. Deb Haaland actually served on the highest cabinet of the nation when she was the Secretary of Interior.
And so I really wanted to speak and change this power of the word “horizon,” and kind of speaking to the power of the now, and how that has kind of been met.
And we’re starting to see a lot of empowerment that I think is innate in Navajo culture. We’re a matrilineal society, but it’s been kind of ripped over time through things like boarding school and, and processes that changed up the family dynamic. But I wanted to speak to that history and use it as a source of empowerment, especially for my nieces.
[00:31:41] Emily: Yeah, I mean, I have to say the relationship on the page and all these beautiful very colorful, illustrations between the grandmother and the granddaughter, is just very moving. Like you don’t need words to see how powerful that relationship is.
[00:31:57] Daniel: Right. And that was one of the things that I struggled with, ‘cause when I first started this, I envisioned maybe taking it to some publishers but for the ones that I had taken it to, there was a big need to put words in there. How are people in Maiddle Americ are gonna understand Navajo culture and what’s happening in there?
I’m like, well, it’s a story about sheep and shepherds and that’s Biblical, right? Anyone could relate to that.
Or there’s a relationship of the grandmother and the grandkids, and we’re starting to see more intergenerational homes in this country based on what’s been going on. And so just like how Fall in Line, Holden! wasn’t necessarily a Native story, I think it’s the same for a Herizon as well, especially when you’re talking about the voiceless in the home.
You know these gender roles that have been placed on us, and expectations that have kind of disrupted a lot of things and in the classroom and in society. I think I wanted to draw connections to things that were relevant within our community such as MMIW.
[00:32:58] Emily: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:59] Daniel: People actually being taken and having their voices stolen.
There was means to do that with a wordless book and draw those connections with the colors and the themes and all that thought that went into it. And so just like Holden, I think I, I try to hit you from so many different angles where you see things you might not have noticed before.
And then so in your second read through, you’re like, “Oh, okay. That took place at Spider Rock. I wonder why she was revived there and now you know that that’s the home of Spider Woman.” You know, that might make sense.
Or you might hear something from your kid that you would learn through that you didn’t understand as an adult. I think that’s the beauty of where this book is, that you’re constantly learning the stories, perhaps constantly changing, even over time. And so. I’m grateful that it got recognized in that way because I’ve been able to go to many different communities and work with them in this way,
[00:33:51] Emily: and I would love to hear a little bit about the symbols throughout the book.
[00:33:55] Daniel: The larger theme, I really wanted to speak to kind of this history of raising cattle and sheep lifeways that sustain Navajo people because of things like boarding school and the Livestock Reduction Act of the thirties and the Long Walk was kind of used to remove us from these lifeways that sustained us. And even actually we thrived under it, with the railroad and sending our rugs and our crafts and our mutton, all that stuff back east.
And then having that taken away. And so really in the sense of the girl going to save the sheep is saving her traditional life ways, whereas the coyotes are kind of the infringements on those, the boarding schools, the Acts, the policies that are meant to contain rather than let us thrive. And so, a lot of the things relate to that.
The scarf is really just speaking to the intergenerational strength within our families. Since it’s handed on from the grandmother to the granddaughter, it’s kind of the passing of that, the scarf being read. Speaking to the MMIW movement, the landscape is a big part. Spider Rock was a big location, but being able to have that location and use it as a sense to revive her knowing the history of Spider Rock. The environment becomes a character in itself. Being saved in Little Colorado River. After she gets bucked off by the horse, she kind of collects herself there. And you think about water is life. It literally saves her life in this book.
[00:35:24] Emily: Yeah, I know. We could spend many more episodes talking about all the different themes and ideas and histories that you’ve woven into both of these books, actually.
But for listeners who are interested, in the spring issue of El Palacio, there is a article about the Navajo Churro sheep and the history of that in connection with the Long Walk and the Livestock Reduction Act and all of that.
So, we have more information there for people.
[00:35:53] Daniel: Yeah. And that, that’s a history that not many people know about but it explains conditions that are happening today. And so, it’s good that it’s happening in our children’s books and magazines and media, because if not, then it’ll just be overlooked.
And another thing with the symbols was the last page. It ends with her looking at the horizon and almost tying her tsiiyéél, or the Navajo bun. Tightening it, ready to kind of go to work.
And you see a lot of the symbolism we had discussed, such as the coyotes. There’s horses in there and butterflies that relate to emergent stories, but also kind of a lot of modern-day landscape. Things like wind turbines and natural resource extractions with the derrick. There’s a casino in there. And those symbols are kind of leaving it up to the imagination of the reader of what happens next. You know, what’s her next journey? Is she gonna go back and be a sheep herder the next day, and kinda leave the kitchen and the dishwashing duties behind?
Is she gonna go off and become a doctor and address COVID? There was a COVID germ on that last spread.
[00:36:58] Emily: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:58] Daniel: and protect her community in that way.
(piano music begins to fade into background)
You know, those symbols I think often get passed on to the readers too, and, and how they see it. Maybe that inspires them to write that next chapter in, in the story.
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[00:37:24] Emily: And you wrote both of these before your kids came, is that true?
Daniel: Yes. Yes.
Emily: So, do you read these books to them?
[00:37:31] Daniel: Oh yeah, yeah. My two-year-old is really kind of fascinated with Fall in Line, Holden! right now. Especially ‘cause we just visited Holden. He’s like, “Oh, Holden. Holden!”
Some of the things I found out later as an author that have benefit with these books, I kind of seen in practice with my own kids, ‘cause it is in black-and-white. We noticed that my daughter could trace a little bit more. And you have those black-and-white books for newborns that help with reading.
But you know, Chicka Chicka Boom Boom right now, rules all, (Emily laughs) so these are, these are still on the shelf at the moment, but hopefully we’ll get there.
[00:38:05] Emily: But they, your oldest understands that you wrote these, right?
[00:38:09] Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. And, and the second book, I didn’t put my picture in there because I was, one, dealing with space. But in the first book, there’s actually an author portrait. And so, he sees me, he is like, “Dada, dada, dada,” and he draws those connections.
And my most recent book that I published last year in November, titled, We Weave, is actually dedicated to my son too. And so, he sees his name in there now and he’s kind of the big guy that has his name in a book. So, he, he understands and it’s kind of cool to see.
I gave a reading in Scottsdale, Arizona, and they had a big old poster of me on the door, and he went and saw me and it was kind of funny just seeing him make those connections. I still do the same thing, seeing myself up on walls and I never imagined being here myself.
[00:38:57] Emily: Yeah. So why did you decide to go to self-publishing for the second book?
[00:39:03] Daniel: I think really to keep the integrity of what my story would be, particularly keeping it wordless.
So I figured we’re in the age of technology where you could start your own podcast, you could create your own YouTube channel. Why can’t I create my own book? And so, is at the time that I was kind of transitioning away from higher ed, where I was able to dive full force into it, and my mom happened to retire at that time, and so we really worked together and figuring out the logistics, “All right, we have the story, we have the book. How do you do everything else?”
[00:39:38] Emily: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:39] Daniel: From printing it to warehousing it, to pricing it for shipping, to starting your own website. I had to dive into all of that. Also, taking the extra effort to develop discussion guides, activity guides, resources for teachers, and to introducing these topics in the classroom, maybe at home.
And I think that really benefited me in honing and craft the book so it’s more than just a book that’s stagnant on a shelf. It’s something that’s pulled off continuously and used in these settings. You know, being a wordless book it could be used for social emotional learning or cultural tie-ins for kids.
Usually when you publish traditionally, there’s a disconnect from you and everyone else, even your illustrator. I’m like, “How? How are they gonna understand these nuances of the head tilt in Fall in Line, Holden!?” And that shows his development. ‘cause every time he falls out of line and he gets yelled at, another kid’s head turns, and another head turns until they finally all fall out of line.
And you see that growth there. Sure, you could see that. But to be there and describing it and how that buildup is, you know, I find that value and I was able to do that with Corey, whereas in previous other books that I did, like with Scholastic, I never met the illustrator. And so I think, it required more work from me, but it was work that my community deserved.
[00:41:02] Emily: What reactions have you had?
[00:41:03] Daniel: I think right now—a lot of it has been positive, just because there is a hunger for these types of stories. If we weren’t invisible, we were being misrepresented. And so there’s a call to correct that history in books for the most part. And so it’s good to see contemporary Navajos in contemporary settings, I think within these stories that people are drawn to.
And I think the best is the feedback I get in people being able to correlate things that are happening to the story with their own life. “Oh, my grandma wore her hair that way and had skirts and she used to have cows and would use binoculars to look for them,” or, “Oh, I went to boarding school and this is something I got into when we were doing chores. I used to ride the buffer and I used to imagine I was riding a bull.”
You hear those types of stories and I think that’s where the value comes in because people make those connections and who knows where that leads? What stories are shared from there? Is it inspiring them to tell their own story?
See, if I could do it, you can too, you know?
And so, I get a lot of inspirational type of comments, especially being a relatively young male author, there aren’t many of us, and so a lot of teachers really appreciate having a young male in the classroom providing positive guidance in a sense. It’s also something I get a lot and those types of things are the things that inspire me to keep going.
Traveling all across the country and throughout the Four Corners. When I was still working in higher ed, I used to do readings for free, just so kids could see a Native with long hair who writes. That’s kind of toned down since I’ve had kids but any opportunity I get, I try to get out there and provide that impact ‘cause that representation hasn’t always been there and still it’s kind of growing, but it’s still not there.
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[00:43:05] Emily: I don’t have We Weave in front of me, but I would love to have you describe it.
[00:43:11] Daniel: Yeah. We Weave is actually a story about a boy and his grandmother using their creativity to purchase a computer when school transitions to virtual learning.
[00:43:22] Emily: Oh, wow.
[00:43:23] Daniel: And so, it is kind of carrying on to the theme of COVID and this new era of kids we have of having to learn virtually, but weaving in technology, with tradition.
And so, it’s about a grandmother who, you know, weaves a traditional Navajo rug and a boy using his phone to help get it sold.
It was dedicated to my son and what really kind of spurred this one was he’s two years old and he already knows how to access the phone. Yeah. I don’t know how many thousands of pictures of nostrils I have and my photo library, (laughs) but he’s savvy enough to know that if you hold it up to my face, he could access YouTube and he could watch certain shows.
And I think technology is something that our kids are gonna be raised with, and it’s gonna be almost like another attachment to them. And I wanted to kind of speak to the positives of it.
I think I do within the story, address the need to talk about the bad, such as bullying and inappropriate photos, and things that could come with a digital device.
[00:44:30] Emily: Mm-hmm.
[00:44:31] Daniel: But I think we’re in a unique digital age where you’re also able to use it for good, such as selling a rug. You know, I think if you were to sell a rug through a trader, you might get $800, $900.
At the rug auction that I attended and volunteered for in Crown Point, they have one every month, and those go for $1,500. And then if we were to sell on the East Coast, you could get it for thousands.
I think we’re now in the age where our artisans, our weavers are able to connect and cut out those middlemen, which historically took advantage of their skills.
And so with this book, I’m hoping to show the beauty in technology and how we can connect to share our crafts, our beauty, our stories. I do hopefully plan to self-publish one more at least that’s gonna be titled Hogan, and it’s gonna be a story that details a Navajo hogan, which as you’re reading, you’re able to also 3D print your own Hogan as you read about it.
[00:45:30] Emily: And so wait, how does that work?
[00:45:30] Daniel: I’m in the last stages of doing that, but I wanted to use QR codes actually to connect you. So if you’re reading the story, as you’re building and you’re learning about these different aspects of what a Navajo Hogan is and what the cultural significance of each details, you’re also able to print it as you learn about it.
And so I’m hoping it’ll be something that you read, you piece together, and then by the time you’re done with the story, you also have a nice little nightlight that sits at the side of your bed as you, as you read this story. And so, that’s what I’m always trying to push. How do you tell these stories in different ways?
How do you embrace technology? And a book like that I think could have wonders in schools. And I haven’t seen one that really incorporates 3D printing into a narrative or a story. And so how cool would that be to be groundbreaking in, in telling that type of story?
[00:46:20] Emily: So, with that book, would it be, you know, for young kids to read in spaces where they have a 3D printer, like a library or a makerspace or something like that?
[00:46:32] Daniel: I’m really trying to decide that right now. I was actually wanting to maybe look into some grants, and figure out how I could maybe find something that could fund 3D printers being placed at the various libraries across Navajo [Nation] and then maybe it being used as a tool where classes, schools, kids, families could take the story to their library and then engage the technology in that way.
But then also maybe check out two or three books, or stay for a reading of somebody coming through, or do some types of arts and crafts, or pick up some masks. I think there’s a lot of beauty that comes from libraries and if we could drive people there, there’s a lot of resources that help out and improve life.
I think it’s important to find balance in all of these things that people often see are competing or clashing. That’s what I try to do with my readings and, and why I create these books.
[00:47:24] Emily: Well, I definitely see the very strong theme of creativity and imagination all the way through, so
[00:47:31] Daniel: And it starts with Holden.
I like to think that all the characters in my books are somebody that’s in line with him. So perhaps the main character in Herizon was one of those heads that turned as he got in trouble. Maybe the boy and We Weave was one of the heads that turned. And then it extends beyond that first book and you’re starting to see that imagination flow out in this universe that I created in different ways and different stories.
And as I mentioned, there’s a lot of crazy things happening in our world right now that will require outside-the-box thinking. And we need outside-the-box thinkers and learners to do that. And unfortunately, that’s not always the learning system, but if a book could be the thing that sparks it, that’s what I’d be happy doing.
[00:48:14] Emily: Well, and what I also am noticing, and it’s not just things like 3D printing and technology, but it seems to be this beautiful blend of looking forward, but also looking to the past and to traditions that have continued to serve the Navajo Nation in particular, in a lot of these stories.
[00:48:34] Daniel: That’s why I tell the kids is like, “Back in my day, we wanted to be cops or baseball players.” Now the big job is “I want to be a streamer. I want to be a YouTuber.”
[00:48:44] Emily: Yeah.
[00:48:45] Daniel: I was like, “Your looks and beauty could only get you so far. You’re gonna need a talent to go behind that. So maybe pick up weaving or podcasting or music and then take it from there.” So, I think there’s gonna be some exciting things that happened in the future.
How do books interact on iPads and how can you make it interactive? That was one of the things I always wanted to do and dreamed of for either of my books, was to have a digital readthrough and you click on a character and the lion roars or, you click on the girl with her scarf and she spanks the coyote to chase it off.
And within that space, you’re able to put your own name in there. And so, it’s “Fall in line, Daniel,” and, and you’re able to bring in language and so. I’m always excited to see how readers, teachers, students use the book in learning spaces. I’ve seen cool projects like a guy in a class, I wish I remembered where it from, but he introduced robotics into the story of Fall in Line, Holden! And actually had them program a little movable robot to go from class to class only for them to yell, “Fall in line, Holden!” and it would continue on.
And so, they programmed it within these block spaces on the ground to visit each of the locations. I was like, “Hey, wow, that’s cool.” And so, if I see those types of things, I, I try to, to do like a contest, with the American Indian Library Association, their American Indian Youth Literature Award.
They’re $500 as part of the prize and it’s like, “Hey, let me do a contest with that.” And so I actually did, after Herizon was published, tell your own story, put your own words to it, maybe put your own language to it and tell your story. So I had a contest that hopefully encouraged kids to write, had some submissions, a lot from the Grants area.
That’s what I like to see with these stories is: how does it extend beyond the story and becomes more than a book that sits on the shelf.
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[00:50:45] Emily: So, I think the last thing that I’d ask you, and I’d also love to hear anything else you want listeners to take away from, from any of this, but what are parents saying to you about these books?
[00:50:57] Daniel: Oh wow. I just think that there’s a need, I think there’s value in having books in the home. There’s value being huddled up to your little one and sharing stories, personal or otherwise, and that’s, it’s good to have these stories in there, especially from my own experience not having books of representation growing up except for my I Spy books.
It was always something that was missing. The value and being able to have that representation goes a long way. Identity and self-esteem. Even being able to relate to a story, to be engaged, to want to read. I think there’s data that shows the more books you have in your household growing up, the more likely you’ll be on grade competent within your reading and writing and math.
I think if my book is helping out in that way, and encouraging and inspiring kids to read, it’s bringing beauty and benefit to the world and, and that’s what I’m proud of. And if parents are using it, librarians are using it, teachers are using it, counselors are using it, you’re just getting the most that you can out of these stories.
So it has value throughout your community in whichever way. And so, I’ve been very fortunate that people have taken to the stories and even more fortunate that they’ve invited me out to their communities to interact with them ‘cause there’s so much you could learn about somebody on a page, but to actually have the face-to-face interaction, and share your stories and your histories and brings us all together. And I think that’s something that should be cherished.
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[00:52:27] Emily: Whether or not you have kids, these books are for everyone. Listeners in Santa Fe can check them out at the New Mexico State Library. If you are listening from somewhere else, check with your library or request that they carry these books or find Fall in line Holden! at salinabookshelf.com and Herizon at southofsunrisecreative.com.
We’ll provide links in the show notes.
Thanks for listening.
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[00:45:14] Emily: Encounter Culture is a production of the New Mexico Department of Cultural Affairs.
Our producer is Andrea Klunder at The Creative Impostor Studios.
This season is produced and edited by Andrea Klunder and Alex Riegler with additional editing by Monica Braine.
Our recording engineers are Collin Ungerleider and Kabby at Kabby Sound Studios in Santa Fe.
Technical direction and post-production audio by Edwin R. Ruiz.
Our executive producer is Daniel Zillmann.
Thank you to New Mexico artist “El Brujo” D’Santi Nava for our theme music.
For a full transcript and show notes, visit podcast.nmculture.org or click the link in the episode description in your listening app.
I’m your host, Emily Withnall.
The New Mexico Department of Cultural Affairs is your guide to the state’s entire family of museums, historic sites, and cultural institutions. From Native treasures to space exploration, world-class folk art to ancient dinosaurs, our favorite way to fully explore is with the New Mexico CulturePass. To see everywhere CulturePass is accepted and reserve yours today, visit nmculture.org/visit/culturepass.
And if you love New Mexico, you’ll love El Palacio Magazine. Subscribe at elpalacio.org.
Thank you for listening, and if you learned something new, send this episode to a friend or share it on social media. We love celebrating the cultures of New Mexico together.
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