The Beaded Nun, Haunted Exhibitions, and Other Museum Stories with Nick Waddell and Michelle Rodriguez, Museum of International Folk Art
[00:00:00] Nick: Mr. Girard (intro music begins) would like to hide jokes in some of his displays. And so, there are some very interesting jokes in there and it helps if someone can show them to you.
[00:00:12] Michelle: There was this one interactive station and it reminded me of, like, my great grandma’s house, right? You walk in and you see all these beautiful different little pots hanging and you know, ristras and whatnot, and so it had a beautiful like aspect of what it felt like at home.
And I just remember looking up and there were so many things to see that I felt like I could stare at this place forever, you know? See something new each time.
[00:00:38] Emily: ¡Bienvenidos! This is Encounter Culture from the New Mexico Department of Cultural Affairs. I’m your host and editor of El Palacio Magazine, Emily Withnall.
(intro music shifts to playful windchime-like music)
When my kids were little and we lived in Las Vegas, we didn’t come to Santa Fe often, but when we did, the Museum of International Folk Art was one of our favorite stops. I have photos of one of my kids at the museum perched on a stool with a wooden mallet in hand. And in a giant folder of my kids’ art, I still have the two shadow puppets they colored and pieced together with brass paper fasteners.
What’s one of your favorite museum memories? And when was the last time you visited that same museum?
One of the perks of my job is that I get to visit the state museums regularly, but editing a magazine and hosting a podcast takes time, so my museum visits are often efficient and work-related. Without young kids to force me to slow down, my museum-going habits may be fairly common.
Nick Waddell is a security guard who has worked at the Museum of International Folk Art for the past twenty-two years. He reveals with the touch of disappointment that many people don’t spend much time in the museum. They often overlook the hundreds of nuances among the ten thousand objects in the Girard Wing, or miss the videos lovingly crafted by the curators and artists in special exhibitions. And even if they’re local, many folks never return to the museum once it’s been checked off the list.
In this episode, our producer Andrea and I met with Nick for a guided tour of what a security guard who walks the same galleries day in and day out observes about art and human behavior. We also spoke with Michelle Rodriguez, a docent and customer service representative at the museum who is herself a New Mexican santera, creating carved figures of saints and retablos.
We loved hearing Michelle and Nick rebel in stories about visitors and experiences in the museum that will make you laugh and may even give you a few ideas for your next museum visit.
And now I invite you to slow down and pay attention. And yes, return to the same museums over and over to check out new exhibitions and see what you missed the first time.
(Music ends)
Welcome to Encounter Culture. Thank you so much for being here with me. And for the listeners, I just want to say this is a behind-the-scenes peek at the Museum of International Folk Art in Santa Fe. We’re talking to two different staff members today.
So, Nick, do you wanna introduce yourself and say what you do here?
[00:03:46] Nick: My name is Nick Waddell. I’m a security guard here. This December will be 22 years.
[00:03:52] Emily: Oh, wow. Okay. So, I want to start us off by asking you: What was your relationship to art before you started working here?
[00:04:03] Nick: Well, actually I came out to New Mexico to go to El Rito, to the junior college, to take weaving courses and Spanish culinary and furniture-making courses. And that was kind of my introduction to art in New Mexico. And I actually came out here on a college tour to see the museum and that’s how I was first introduced to the museum.
[00:04:27] Emily: Oh, wow. Okay. And did you have a particular relationship with art before you came to New Mexico?
[00:04:34] Nick: I tried. I was one of those students that used the wrong colors for my art teacher, and I was actually flunked out of a basic art class in the 10th grade. And the only thing I did that I thought was just perfection—I was a farm boy. So, they wanted us to draw a pencil drawing, and I did a 24-inch-high outhouse with all the cracks and the knot holes and everything. And I was very proud of it. And my teacher told me to change it because it looked too much like an outhouse.
[00:05:07] Emily: What? (laughs)
[00:05:08] Nick: So, I knew I was dead, dead meat from then on. But, uh, she was nice enough to give me a D so I could pass, and I never touched anything artistic after that until I came to El Rito, and they got me to start using colors and designs and ideas.
[00:05:26] Emily: Okay. Hopefully you had more supportive teachers there.
Nick: Oh God, yes.
Emily: Okay.
[00:05:29] Nick: They were wonderful at El Rito, yes.
[00:05:33] Emily: Good! (Laughs) One of the things that I’m super curious about is, you know, when I think about people coming into the museum and looking at various exhibitions, I imagine that a lot of visitors who come are only interacting with the exhibition once, and especially for the exhibitions that are here long-term, you see this art many, many, many times. So, I’m curious about what that is like to spend that much time with the art here.
[00:06:02] Nick: Well, especially with the Girard Collection, which is the world’s largest collection of international folk art, the more years you look at it, the more you see because there’s over 10,000 objects in the show, and it’s our one permanent exhibit. And it’s wonderful to see people coming from all over the world and bringing other visitors to see it that haven’t.
And they’re just amazed to see how much is in there and to look at everything. And, uh, they think they see something brand new in there, but it’s never changed. Right? And so all the guards are snickering quietly because the person who’s an expert who’s showing them around is saying, “Oh, this is brand new. This wasn’t here last time I was here.” But it’s always been there.
[00:06:49] Emily: Is there something in the Girard exhibition that is especially hidden that people often don’t see that you can?
[00:06:57] Nick: Mr. Girard would like to hide jokes in some of his displays. And so, there are some very interesting jokes in there, and it helps if someone can show them to you. And on occasion when we see a person who’s really, really deeply interested in the exhibit, we will sometimes, if we have time, show them some of the jokes and the hidden parts in the chart exhibit.
[00:07:21] Emily: Okay. So, is there any kind of clue you can give, like if someone wants to come to a scavenger hunt in the Girard Wing?
[00:07:31] Nick: Well, one of the fun things, when I first started here, my captain told me that it was my job to memorize where everything was in there, because some day somebody’s gonna come and ask me to show them where this is at or that is at. And so, I tried looking at everything my first week, just terrified trying to memorize things, and the more I looked at things, the more I forgot the first things I looked at.
And I’m going around. The only thing that stuck in my head on the second week was the beaded nun, which has her black and white habit, and she’s in a special case of dolls that are done by Native Americans and African tribes.
And there’s a beaded nun in that display, and that stuck in my head for some reason. And on the third week, a lady came in and asked, “Can you tell me where the beaded nun is at?” And I was so proud because it’s the only thing I could remember (Nick and Emily laugh).
[00:08:30] Emily: Oh, nice. What about other exhibitions that come and go? What do you think you gain from looking at it more often than maybe the average visitor?
[00:08:42] Nick: Oh, we’ve had so many wonderful ones. One of the favorites was Japanese kites.
[00:08:47] Emily: Okay.
[00:08:48] Nick: And we actually had a kite that was three quarters of an inch high. It was the size of a postage stamp, and you flew it with one strand of raw silk. That’s how light it was. And that was just fascinating to me because it was so tiny.
You really had to look in the displays to see it and then find out what it was, and then we had kites up to 16 feet across, so it was a wonderful display and, and everybody just loved it. Of course, they brought a master over from Japan who made kites with the public and took it out and flew it in the plaza out here, which was a lot of fun.
[00:09:24] Emily: Yeah. Yeah. Wow!
[00:09:26] Nick: I’ve had the people who can come in and go through the whole museum in 15 minutes and go out the door, and we are just bewildered and we look at each other like, “Why did they come in?”
And then I’ve had a couple, especially, I remember, from Texas, it was a husband and wife, both retired librarians and they had to read everything there was to read.
[00:09:55] Emily: Uh huh.
[00:09:55] Nick: And they came back three days in a row.
[00:09:58] Emily: Oh, wow!
[00:10:00] Nick: Eventually they moved here and she became a docent here. They loved it so much!
[00:10:06] Emily: Oh, wow! (Laughs)
[00:10:07] Nick: So, that was a lot of fun. But we do have people that will really take their time and go eat lunch and come back later because you can get overwhelmed with all the art and all the colors. Especially in the Girard exhibit. It’s quite, quite in-depth in there.
[00:10:22] Emily: Do you have any stories that stick out in your 22 years here of interesting interactions you’ve seen with guests?
[00:10:31] Nick: Well, on my, I think it was the third or fourth year I worked here, I was working on a Saturday and this group of gentlemen come in, 23, and they were only speaking French.
They turned out to be a group of Haitian policemen who were here on a tour. They had a translator with them ‘cause they only spoke French. And they said, “We’re here. Where’s our docent?” And we had no docent arranged for them, And so luckily my sergeant, who knew me quite well, said, “You can give ‘em a tour, go ahead.”
So, I gave them a complete tour of the whole museum, and the fascinating thing was they went through the Girard collection, they saw some cut-out metal pieces, and immediately said the man’s name who made them in Haiti. They recognized his work.
[00:11:22] Emily: Wow!
[00:11:23] Nick: And I asked them what was their favorite thing in the ARD exhibit, and their favorite thing was a two-inch-tall policeman arresting a man in the Peruvian exhibit. And they thought that was the funniest thing in the world because they had a story. The man was drunk and the policeman was arresting him, and they made all that up themselves and they just loved it. And they just were laughing and laughing over the one little policeman in there.
[00:11:50] Emily: Wow. Okay! (Laughs) That’s fascinating. What else?
[00:11:56] Nick: Oh, sometimes we get an old grouchy person whose wife or husband, depending on who’s who, right, in the family, doesn’t want to be here, and the other one is just enthralled with everything and wants to soak up everything and see everything, and the other one wants to leave because even 15 minutes was too much for them personally.
I had two old grandfathers who came with their children and their grandchildren, and the boys were teenagers. They both had bad knees. And so, their excuse was, “Our knees are bad. We can’t walk around. The building is bigger than we thought it was.” And their, their family was just so disappointed.
At the time, we had two electric wheelchairs that people could use. So, I got the keys, went outside, pulled them off of the garden wall, and said, “Okay, here’s your keys, here’s your electric carts. You have no excuse. Go with your family.” And they enjoyed the heck out of it! (Upbeat instrumental music begins) Especially when the teenage boys wanted to borrow the carts and the grandfather said, “No, they’re ours!”
[00:13:09] Emily: Mm-hmm. Nice.
(Music continues)
[00:13:20] Emily: I mean, you’re a security guard. Have there been any attempted art theft moments in your 22 years here?
[00:13:28] Nick: I’m afraid there was one, once.
[00:13:30] Emily: Oh no.
[00:13:31] Nick: Yes. And it was during a special opening in the Hispanic Wing.
[00:13:37] Emily: Okay.
[00:13:38] Nick: And it was a little, tiny hand-carved object. I was off for my two days off, and they had had this big opening with, like, a thousand people in a very small gallery. It was just elbow to elbow, everything going on. You, you couldn’t keep track of anything ‘cause you couldn’t even get close to stuff, hardly to look at it. It was such a good turnout.
[00:14:02] Emily: Oh, wow.
[00:14:03] Nick: And the next morning there was one little piece gone. And I went to my sergeant, and I went to my captain, and, of course, they take objects out to take them to conservation, to clean them or to preserve them or repair them, and so sometimes they’ll take an object out of display. Normally they leave a card there saying, “This is temporarily out.” And this one, there was nothing showing. And so, we had to call around and the funny part was, a lot of the people couldn’t remember what the piece was.
It was a piece that I hated, not for the subject matter. It was Joseph leading Mary on a donkey to Egypt, which I thought was wonderful and beautiful, but the man who carved it carved the rope from Joseph to the donkey. The size looked more like it should be pulling the Titanic’s anchor (both laugh), and it would just annoy me all my life that this great, big rope was attached between Joseph and the donkey.
And I said, “Well, that was the one with Joseph.” And so, they got the book out ‘cause they have pictures of everything. It will show us which one it was. And I said, “There it is. See how big the rope is? It’s way too big for that.” So, luckily not liking it made me remember it.
[00:15:36] Emily: Was it ever found?
[00:15:38] Nick: No.
[00:15:39] Emily: Okay.
[00:15:40] Nick: Sorry. It wasn’t, but that, I’ve been here going on 22 years and that’s the only thing that’s—
[00:15:46] Emily: Well, that’s impressive. You must be doing your job well then (laughs).
[00:15:51] Nick: I try. Yeah. I try.
[00:15:54] Emily: So, the theft was a one-time thing, it sounds like. But what is a typical day for you at the museum?
[00:16:00] Nick: Well, oddly enough, up until recently, we are also the custodians here. And so, from eight to 10 when we’re not open to the public, we clean all the plexiglass. We clean all the bathrooms, we clean carpets, vacuum—all of that for the first two hours. Then, at 10 o’clock we open to the public and we are stationed for 30 minutes at a time in each gallery. And we move around so we don’t have to stay in one all day.
And we take turns at the front sometimes and we act as information people on where a display is, or where they should start. And of course, the most often asked question is, “Where is the restroom?” (Both laugh.) I wish I had a dollar for every time someone asked me that. I could retire now.
But, uh, we’re in the galleries. We answer questions for people. If there’s a guidebook, we tell them where the guidebook is. If they’re looking for the beaded nun, we tell them where the beaded nun is. I used to have fun in the Girard when I first started here because over close to the beaded nun is one of the most popular displays, which is “Heaven and Hell,” and there is a whole Heaven with seven countries of angels in it. There’s a little purgatory in the middle, and then way down below in the plexiglass-covered case is Hell. And I would be on the far side of the Girard, and all of a sudden from the other end, I would hear this “Wham!” against the plexiglass. And I thought, “Oh, is somebody trying to break into a case, or what’s going on?”
And I would run over there and they’d say, “Oh, I’m sorry. I was trying to look into Hell a little closer, and I hit my head on the plexiglass.” (Both laugh.) And I have heard that over and over again. And so now, I walk up to people who are trying to get close ‘cause you really need to look because Girard put a mirror underneath the demons in hell so that it looks like it keeps on going forever and ever, and people just want to get over that little lip so they can kind of look a little further in, right?
And so now, I go over. Before they hit their head, I say—I can always tell when somebody’s really interested in Hell, and then I’ll slap my flat hand against the plexi because I hear this across the room. So, don’t be afraid to look a little closer. Just don’t hit your head too hard on the plexiglass. And then they get really enthusiastic and lean their head in and look down so they can see all the bright colors.
Some parents have had the misfortune of asking their small children, “Where do you want to go when you die? Do you want to go up here in Heaven or do you want to go to Hell?” And most of the kids say, “I want to go to Hell ‘cause it’s much more colorful.” (Both laugh.)
(Jazzy latin music begins)
[00:19:04] Emily: Oh, that’s funny.
[00:19:05] Nick: I don’t think that was the answer the parents were looking for, but the kids are honest.
[00:19:09] Emily: Yeah. That’s amazing.
(Music continues, then fades)
[00:19:30] Emily: One question I wanted to ask you: When my kids were little, I remember bringing them here, and at the time there were all these activities they could do, so they made some, I think it was Indonesian shadow puppets, and they played on the Gamelan. I’m curious if that kind of programming still goes on for kids.
[00:19:50] Nick: Oh, yes. Yes, yes. They try to have an educational table in each new exhibit where kids, and we say “kids,” are—age range is from three to a hundred. We tell people so that adults can participate, color, cut out whatever they’re doing. Even in our new exhibit on prison art, you can actually make paper flowers and put them on an altar that’s in there right now.
In our, uh, Mexican papier mâché exhibit, you can draw the fantasy animals that are a mixture of two or three different kinds of animals. Draw a picture of them, color them, and put them on the board for other people to see. And each exhibit will have some kind of table where people can participate and do something on their own.
[00:20:37] Emily: Are there any current exhibitions that have pieces that you’re particularly drawn to?
[00:20:43] Nick: Uh, well, of course, the prison art exhibit. All of the sketching on the handkerchiefs, the panels are, are just wonderful. They’re just an amazing assortment of ideas, both religious and non-religious, and quite beautiful.
And, of course, they make the little gum wrapper foldings to make everything from purses and wallets to picture frames. And I think back to when I was a kid, we would collect Juicy Fruit gum wrappers and just make a long chain of those folded pieces of paper, and um, other older people come in and say, “Oh, I remember when I used to make those in, in school and I had a big, long one I never did anything with it. I didn’t know you could put ‘em together like that and make a picture frame or a purse or something like that.”
So, it’s quite fun to see what you can actually do with the things. I just have a much deeper appreciation for the fact that, as Mr. Girard tried to show people, the world is like one village, and we all do similar things.
So, everybody does beading in some respect, and everybody does dolls in some respect, and everybody does farmers’ market scenes with all the little sellers and the vegetables and things like that. And there’s so much to see that everybody’s quite similar when you really get down to it.
[00:22:12] Emily: Yeah. And do you still do your own art, weaving or otherwise?
[00:22:17] Nick: I have been reduced due to some hand arthritis and some other things. I make baby hats now. When I started here, there were young people working here who were having their first babies, and I wanted to make something that was handmade. So, I went and discovered ring knitting. Now, the people that I made baby hats for are in high school and college, but now we have a young cashier who’s about to give birth. And so, we have made her a, a baby hat also. And it’s, it’s small, but it’s something personable that I can still make and I don’t need room for a big loom or anything. So, it works out that way.
[00:22:58] Emily: Is there anything that you would want visitors to know either about your work or about the museum?
[00:23:06] Nick: Just that more people need to know, especially in New Mexico, that we do have days that are free. The first Sunday of each month is free for New Mexico residents, and also every Wednesday seniors 60 and over are free. And so, there’s no reason not to come if you have a big family or can always come on the first Sunday, and it’s free.
I think more people need to come and see the museums, and we have people that’ll come in and say, “Oh, I was here 20 years ago, or I was here 30 years ago.” And that’s the only time they came. Well, in that time there had been changing shows that had been fantastic, like the Japanese kites, like the Indonesian shadow puppets you discussed, and all of that.
It was a lot of fun and very educational. And the one on the Japanese ghosts that we just had, ghosts and demons of Japan, that was loved, and it came out during COVID when we had to close, so we kept it open for four years and people are still coming in saying, “Oh, it’s not here now. Oh, I wanted to show somebody.” You know?
[00:24:20] Emily: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:24:21] Nick: So, you need to come more often, rather than 20 or 30 years. Don’t miss the good things. You know? Pasatiempo usually has a half-page ad on openings, and that’s a good way to know what is new and what’s going on.
[00:24:37] Emily: Also, if you subscribe to El Palacio, we always have all the exhibitions listed in the back of the magazine too.
[00:24:46] Andrea: I’m laughing over here because I was telling Emily about the, the Japanese ghosts and demons, the Yokai, kind of like the haunted house—
[00:24:54] Nick: Oh, yes!
[00:24:54] Emily: That’s our producer, Andrea Klunder.
[00:24:56] Andrea: That was my first time ever here and I was by myself (Everyone laughs). Oh, and, and it was right before the museum closed, so there was no one else here.
And I went in the wrong way. I went in through the exit, and I was going through the haunted house backwards. So, the timing of all the little things that would activate, they would go off when they were behind me because I would trip the motions. I was so freaked out. (Everyone laughs.) It was so much fun. I loved it. I loved it, but I was like, “What? Why can’t I get outta here?”
[00:25:32] Nick: We had little children, like five years old, who were terrified to go in there. And once they did, then they would grab their father or their mother, make them go through 10 times and, and then want to do it again later. And they just, just loved that show.
For that, they actually brought in an engineer from Japan who designed a Japanese scary house. And that was their version of, you know—and there’s, people don’t jump out at you like we do here and try to catch you with a machete or anything. But it was still scary in a polite sort of way.
[00:26:14] Emily: (Laughs) It’s funny ‘cause I came here when it was up still with a friend and she refused to go in, so I never saw it. She was like, “Nope, I will not mess with Japanese ghosts. Not going in there.” So, we didn’t see it!
[00:26:29] Nick: We have a few guards who would not go in and turn the set-up on or off. They would not go into that room for anything. And so, it took some of the rest of us to go in and turn things on in the morning and turn them off at night ‘cause they were just terrified of some of those things.
[00:26:50] Emily: Yeah. Have you had other exhibitions that have been, you know, similar things where culturally some of the staff doesn’t want to interact with it for cultural reasons?
[00:27:01] Andrea: Or because it was haunted?
[00:27:04] Nick: Well, everybody always asks us, “Is Mr. Girard haunting his collection?”
[00:27:09] Emily: Oh, wow.
[00:27:09] Nick: And we haven’t had any proof of that (Playful, light music begins). So, um, we do hear strange bangings and clangings, especially when we close up at night and we’re ready to set the alarm and go out the door. We will hear something like someone is still back there, but nobody’s back there.
[00:27:29] Emily: Okay, interesting.
[00:27:30] Nick: So, it gets kinda interesting.
Emily: That’s amazing! (Laughs)
(Music continues, then fades)
[00:27:47] Emily: What characteristics would a person need to have to be a security guard here?
[00:27:50] Nick: You have to really enjoy the public because you will get some people who are not happy campers, and so you have to be able to talk to them and direct them to someone they need to solve a problem they’re having. And you do have to get along with the public, definitely, and especially the other guards. You know, we’re like a family here.
And so, you know, when you’re having a baby, we all celebrate. When you’re having a birthday, we all celebrate. And, um, it’s a really good job. I like it for the benefits. I am 77 now. I’m hoping to go a few more years. So, the health benefits are wonderful with the state, (delicate wind-chime music begins) and that’s especially why I’m here.
But I do enjoy the public and I see all the happiness here. There’s a lot more happiness than unhappiness, so that’s, that’s good. And, I think that’s the most important thing.
(Music continues as promo begins)
[00:28:53] Emily: When they were young, my kids loved visiting the Museum of International Folk Art, where they could make Indonesian shadow puppets or play the gamelan. The museum offers something for visitors of all ages. From hands-on crafts, interactive exhibitions, and the world’s finest folk art, revel in the colors and textures that shape human culture, resilience, and creativity.
The Museum of International Folk Art connects people through creative expression and artistic traditions. Visit moifa.org for tickets, events, and more.
(Music continues)
Did you know the New Mexico Culture Pass is now available to purchase online? Culture Pass gives you access to each of the 15 state museums and historic sites we feature on Encounter Culture. Whether you are a local resident or you’re visiting us on your travels, reserve your culture pass today at nmculture.org/visit/culturepass.
(Promo ends and music fades)
[00:30:16] Emily: Welcome. I’m so glad to have you here. Can you introduce yourself to listeners?
[00:30:21] Michelle: Sure, absolutely. My name’s Michelle Rodriguez, and thank you for having me. I’m a customer service representative here at MOIFA. I’m also a docent, so I’m mostly a school group tour guide—so I deal a lot with the children and I have a lot of fun with that.
[00:30:35] Emily: Nice. How long have you worked here?
[00:30:37] Michelle: I just recently hit three years now at MOIFA.
[00:30:40] Emily: Okay, great. Well, I love hearing that you work with children ‘cause I want to know all about that. But before we dive into that, I’m curious about what your relationship to art or museums was before you started working here.
[00:30:54] Michelle: Well, I actually have a degree in fine arts from the Santa Fe Community College. I am an artist as well. I’m a santera, and I do mixed media art. And being that I was a waitress during COVID, things changed and I really wanted to follow the art path and kind of see what I could do in the world, and so I was lucky enough to get a position here at MOIFA.
[00:31:17] Emily: Can you talk about what it means to be a santera and what kind of media you use?
[00:31:22] Michelle: Yeah. A santera is basically a person that is trained to carve santos, which are saints, and I do bultos and retablos. And bultos are like an actual figure that is an upstanding piece, you know, 360º kind of piece. And the other retablos are something that’s like a relief carving.
So, I work specifically with different saints that I carve out of wood and all by hand.
[00:31:46] Emily: And do you have specific saints that you depict over and over again?
[00:31:50] Michelle: Yeah, actually I do. Um, St. Francis is a very popular one here in New Mexico. Same with San Pascal, the kitchen saint (laughs). And then I love the Guadalupe, so I’m always doing something with her, you know. But I, I’ve definitely done some with St. Catherine of Sienna and I also sent one to a nunnery estate that I got commissioned for in Chicago. Yeah, so I did St. Claire. She lives there.
[00:32:15] Emily: Wow. That’s really cool. So, I know that doing this kind of work, the carving that you just described, is often passed down through families. Is that something that you learned from family members?
[00:32:27] Michelle: Actually, my grandfather, he did carve, but I learned it from a teacher who’s a famous santero here in New Mexico. His name’s Felix Lopez. He’s from up north in Española area, and he was our teacher at the college. And so, I was lucky enough to learn from somebody who’s been doing this tradition for a very long time, and I believe his family members are passed down as well to do it.
[00:32:50] Emily: Okay. And are there different styles depending on where you are in New Mexico?
[00:32:55] Michelle: Yeah, I think also it depends ‘cause there’s also a contemporary market now for it too. So, the traditional style would be more of people using pigments that they’ve picked themselves and painting them themselves. And now the contemporary thing would be, you know, using acrylic paint or different materials to decorate them.
[00:33:13] Emily: Okay. And what do you do?
[00:33:15] Michelle: I am definitely a contemporary one. Yeah. I do a little bit of mixed media, but I kind of like to do, just kind of stain the wood, ‘cause I like the way the wood really looks just already. And then I’ll do a little bit of burning on it too. Gold leaf halos, and incorporate a little texture, but that’s why it’s considered contemporary, I suppose.
[00:33:32] Emily: Okay. I’m noticing too that you are wearing Guadalupe earrings today—
[00:33:41] Michelle: Yes, yes! I, she’s one of my favorites (both women laugh). I just recently did a textile—I do sewing as well, so I did an embroidery jacket of her.
[00:33:47] Emily: Oh, wow.
[00:33:48] Michelle: Yeah, and so, I’ve been having fun with that too. Kind of connecting with my grandmother. I just miss her, so.
[00:33:53] Emily: Oh, wow. That sounds really—I mean, I’m just imagining an embroidered Guadalupe on a jacket and how much work and detail that would require.
[00:34:03] Michelle: Yes. Yeah. It’s, it’s definitely some time-consuming thing, but it’s just, it’s inspiring to keep going with the threads and the colors and—I use seed beads too, to give textures, so I can show you pictures if you ever want to see.
[00:34:16] Emily: I would love to see that. Yeah. So, based on the art that you do, the embroidery and the bultos and the retablos and everything, it sounds like you’re a perfect fit for the folk art museum, I’m curious about how your interactions with the art here have influenced your own art.
[00:34:34] Michelle: Oh yeah. No, this is definitely one of the most inspiring places I’ve ever been. Um, when I was a young child, I remember a field trip here and it was probably like 1996 or something, and I just remember looking around in the Girard Wing and thinking, this is definitely something that I could see myself being a part of in the future, but I never would’ve guessed that I’d be working here. So, it’s, it’s been a blessing in my life.
I did grow up in the art world. My father is a bronze sculptor and he’s what I call “the artist artist.” And he actually was with Allan Houser for a long, long time. He was one of his, like, right-hand men. And so, all these pieces in the sculpture garden—he helped create that are out here on Milner Plaza. So, it’s kind of nice. I do feel at home here.
[00:35:19] Emily: That’s awesome. So, do you remember anything from those early visits when you were a kid?
[00:35:27] Michelle: I do. There was this one interactive station, and it, I guess it was kind of more related to the Pueblo people, but also, like, people here in New Mexico, and it reminded me of my great grandma’s house, right?
You walk in and you see all these beautiful, different little pots hanging and, you know, (gentle guitar music begins) ristras and whatnot, and so it had a beautiful aspect of what it felt like at home, and I just remember looking up and there were so many things to see that it’s just—I felt like I could stare at this place forever, you know? See something new each time.
[00:36:09] Emily: I love that you came here as a kid and that you now work with student groups, so I’d love to hear a little bit about what you notice about kids (music fades away) visiting the museum versus adults. Like, how do they experience it differently, do you think?
[00:36:24] Michelle: Well, there’s definitely something about kids that it’s just pure, you know, it’s, it’s such amazement when they come into the museum and they feel so overwhelmed with this joy.
And so, when I deal with the kids, I like to point out things that are eye level to them or things that are above them and different areas where they normally wouldn’t look. And I like to tell them stories about some history of, maybe I know a story or two that a kid created a piece. I like to mention that to them too, because you never know what your family members do that will inspire you later on in your life.
But I’ve also noticed a similarity when the adults come in, and they turn into children all over again, and it’s really sweet to see that. When they go into that wing and they see all these toys and they’re like, “This room just reminds me of being a kid!”
But I do notice kids aren’t afraid. They love to ask questions and they want to know more, and they’re very interested in how pieces were created. So, I think it’s really wonderful that our education team recognizes that. They have make-and-take all the time where they do things on the weekends, where kids can come in for free, they get to make something, take it home, and then they get to understand how the pieces were created and what mediums they have to use to even make their own art pieces.
I like to point out the smallest object in the Girard Wing and then ask them what they think it’s created out of. I’ll tell you ladies: it’s a, a little tiny, tiny, tiny figure that’s made out of rice. A rice grain. So, so I get to show them that, and they always think that’s the coolest thing. So, that’s fun.
[00:37:50] Emily: Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever noticed a kid having a really surprising response to a piece of art?
[00:37:57] Michelle: Well, it’s kind of silly. There is a piece of art in there that, you know, kind of shows a woman’s bust, and so they always close their eyes or they run away from that one, which is really cute (everyone laughs). That’s a silly piece.
But, you know, mostly kids that just really enjoy the things that are showing scenes in the cities. Like if you go through, there’s “the Mexico scene,” we call it, and there’s the butcher scene. There’s the Dia de los Muertos, there’s the funeral, there’s all this stuff going on in the city, and they want to talk more about that and they want to hear what’s happening in the city ‘cause it kind of relates to them and what happens in our city, you know? And so, they, they feel kind of related to that, I think.
Recently we did some stuff with the cartoneria show, which is the papier mâché from Mexico, and I noticed that there’s this piece in there that a kid helped his grandfather create.
And when I get to mention to them that a 10-year-old little boy was part of that, they really light up and they think about the things that they could do, and the, the possibilities that they have in their future. And I’d like to highlight to them too, you know, think about the people that are in your life, the things that they do, and the things that might interest you and really pay attention to them because it’s important. You might be able to carry on a tradition of your family members or, or somebody you just really want to, you know, take after. So, I, I like to see when I tell them that—their reactions—and it’s always a big smile and it’s always excitement, and I see this possibility in their eyes. Like, “Imagine what I could do when I’m older,” you know?
[00:39:27] Emily: Do you have kids who come with school groups and then bring their parents back later?
[00:39:31] Michelle: You know, I’ve had a few. Yes. And then they point out, “Hey, that’s the lady that talked to me.” And so that’s always kind of fun. But yeah, I do. And it’s also nice too because you’ll get some kids that have never been here and their parents have never been here. So, I try to tell them little stories or little things that might interest them. And then when they come back, they get to tell their parents these stories. And then I notice that they were paying attention (everyone laughs).So, it was nice.
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[00:40:07] Emily: That’s awesome. So, you spend a lot more time with the exhibitions and the pieces in the exhibitions than a lot of visitors might. What do you think you gain from that, that maybe could be interesting for visitors to think about in terms of coming back (music stops) repeatedly to see the same exhibition?
[00:40:24] Michelle: One thing that we do here at MOIFA that I really like is that we deal a lot with traveling exhibitions.
So, every once in a while, people come just to see those things that are traveling. And then they come back and they’re like, “Where did this go? We want to see this.” And I’m able to tell them. Or sometimes it’s not traveling and it’s just something they got to see one time. So, that alone will bring people back because they want to see what’s next. They want to see the future of whatever the GOC has, you know? And that’s the Gallery of Conscience, which is very interesting as well ‘cause it’s always dealing with things that are happening right now.
And then of course the Girard Wing, people always come back for that because there’s over 10,000 objects in that room alone. So, they come back to see what they missed, right? And so, that always—it does bring visitors back from all over the world. And one of my favorite things is when I hear somebody come back and they say, “Oh gosh, I haven’t been here in 20 years. I’m so excited to see this again,” you know, and the way they feel about that.
So, I do get a lot of people coming back from all over the world. Just excited to see it one more time.
[00:41:25] Emily: Is there anything specific you do when a new exhibition opens to prepare for tours?
[00:41:32] Michelle: You know, I really enjoy hearing the stories behind the art pieces. I really like to know the secret stories that maybe somebody won’t tell or we won’t know other than a docent, right?
And so, we usually do a docent walkthrough, and that’s usually with curators. And I really enjoy that moment because then I get to really hear about the artwork, really hear a personal story maybe, or even learn where it came from, even if it doesn’t have a name on it. I’ll know at least some history about that piece, and I think that’s very important ‘cause that’s a personal aspect that I get. Not everybody gets to have that.
During an exhibition opening, what I will do to prepare for a tour is: I like to wait until the day it opens, which is kind of funny. But I do—I wait till the day it opens so I can be surprised and I feel like it’s the first time walking into this room and I get to learn everything about it.
And once I do, I make notes. Believe me, I, I keep notes and I, you know, try to make up my own little cheat sheet so when I get to tell my stories, I tell them accurately (laughs). I got a, a fun, personal piece in right now, actually. My grandfather, he is—or was—a guard at the prison and during the riots, and my grandmother was as well, and she was the first female to ever retire from the New Mexico Corrections Department.
And so, we recently just opened a show related to prison art and my father gave me a cup that my grandfather actually was gifted by one of the prisoners that was in the riot. And during the riot, I guess my grandfather helped this person, and so he gifted him this cup and it kind of has like engraving talking about it on the outside and what happened during the riot, and he just wanted to say thank you for helping him through it.
And another personal story about that is my grandmother, during that time she was there and she had gathered a whole bunch of keys from her pod, and as she was grabbing the keys to kind of go back to help people, she fell. She broke her wrist, and two really bad prisoners picked her up and started carrying her out. And they said, “Not this one.” And they took her to safety. And that just goes to show how if you treat people a certain way, it can help you in the future as well.
And so, I think it’s kind of neat to have that personal piece in the show right now too ‘cause it shows different sides of the prison system—not just artwork that’s coming through prisoners, but it also shows a relationship between the guards and the prisoners and how, you know, it can, it can help in the future if you just treat people right.
[00:44:01] Emily: I love that connection because your grandfather actually makes a brief appearance in an article in El Palacio in the fall issue. There’s an article in there about the 1980 prison riot at the state penitentiary, so that cup is mentioned, and—
[00:44:18] Michelle: That’s so exciting! I know my dad was really excited to do the interview and uh, he’s like, you know, “There’s many stories that I will tell, but there’s a lot that I won’t, Michelle.” And I said, “I understand that.” There’s a lot of history there that’s just kind of spooky too, so, yeah. But, yeah, there’s a lot of history in that place and so, you know, it’s interesting to kind of get the connection.
[00:44:39] Emily: Mmhmm. Well, I remember ‘cause we did an episode on Encounter Culture about that exhibition, and Patricia and Chloe were talking about bringing kids in who had this connection. You know, it’s not just formerly incarcerated artists that might relate to this show, but also just the kids and the other family members who have been impacted by incarceration in some way.
At the time of this recording, that exhibition has just opened, right? I’m curious if you have seen any kids come through.
[00:45:10] Michelle: Well, as of right now, I think we’ve only had a few kids that have come through with their parents and what we will do, and it’s gonna primarily focus on junior high children and high school children, that we will take through there and tour.
And, um, you know, it can be a very sensitive subject as well for some people. I mean, there’s definitely people that are children that have people that, you know, are in the system, and so we want to make it as sensitive as possible for that. And also, we want to make sure that we don’t trigger any, you know, trauma. And so, I think the most important thing to highlight for this show is that it’s art therapy, and whether it’s the person on the other end receiving the letter or the paño, or if it’s the person making it. Either way it’s a therapeutic thing for them.
Right now, what’s going on with our show from the Ukraine, the war from Ukraine—everyone keeps coming up to me and telling me how powerful that show is and how it’s making them feel. And it’s really bringing acknowledgment to the here and now, and I think that’s a really important thing to see and to hear.
So, I think that no matter what we do here at MOIFA, I think every show has a different feeling that it makes somebody feel, whether it’s cartonería—it makes them happy and all the colorful things make them smile—or whether it’s staff picks and they get to see things that we get to pick from the collections that they may never, ever see again.
And so, I think that everybody has their own kind of feeling that they get out of here. But it’s mostly positive and it’s always something that they want to share. Like, they’ll go off and they’ll tell somebody, “You have to go here!” We are like top five in Santa Fe to come to see. And so, I just think it’s, it’s really nice to see people’s reactions and let them take in the art, and then they get to talk about it, and then they get to express what they feel. And sometimes, you’ll see people crying, sometimes you’ll see people laughing, you know, smiling. (Gentle instrumental music begins) The Japanese show we had, you’d always hear people screaming, and that was exciting (everyone laughs). One of our favorites.
[00:47:15] Emily: So, what would it take for someone to be a docent if they were interested in that kind of work?
[00:47:21] Michelle: Well, I think it just takes interest in the artwork. So, anybody who wants to come and learn about the art pieces or wants to come and learn about a show and how it’s built, I think that’s the person you would want definitely to become a docent, because then that’s the person who wants to carry on the tradition of storytelling, and I think that’s important.
In New Mexico, we have a lot of traditions of storytelling, and I think that’s something that we should highlight and keep going for a long time because without the stories and [if] we don’t know anything about the artists, and we don’t know anything about the collectors. Keeping these stories alive really helps the artwork keep alive as well.
[00:47:57] Emily: Yeah. I love that. Is there any last thing that I haven’t asked you that you would want listeners to know about your work here or the museum?
[00:48:07] Michelle: Well, I just, I think that anybody who hasn’t come here yet, you should definitely come up and check out the Museum of International Folk Art. This work comes from all over the world. It’s not just New Mexico work. It’s from all over the world. And I think it’s really neat to see that no matter where you’ve come from, no matter what you do in your life, we’re all similar in a way. And that means we all like to create similar things. You know, you can come from the middle of nowhere and you make something really beautiful, something special, whatever’s around you that you can create, and you’ll feel that when you go into these different galleries and you’ll see that there’s a lot of stuff that comes from different places that looks the same or is made the same, but by totally different people. So, I just think that’s really neat.
[00:48:50] Emily: Awesome. Well, thank you so much.
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I hope Nick and Michelle have inspired you to add a museum visit to your calendar or to find an art form you want to learn or build upon in the coming year. Check out our show notes for information about current and upcoming exhibitions at the Museum of International Folk Art, and for links to recent articles featuring the museum and El Palacio.
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[00:49:37] Emily: Encounter Culture is a production of the New Mexico Department of Cultural Affairs. Our producer is Andrea Klunder at the Creative Imposter Studios.
Our producer is Andrea Klunder at the Creative Imposter Studios.
This season is produced and edited by Andrea Klunder and Alex Riegler with additional editing by Monica Braine.
Our recording engineers are Colin Underlier and Kabby at Kabby Sound Studios in Santa Fe.
Technical Direction and post-production audio by Edwin R. Ruiz.
Our executive producer is Daniel Zillman.
Thank you to New Mexico artist “El Brujo” D’Santi Nava for our theme music.
For a full transcript and show notes, visit podcast.nmculture.org, or click the link in the episode description in your listening app.
I’m your host, Emily Withnall.
The New Mexico Department of Cultural Affairs is your guide to the state’s entire family of museums, historic sites, and cultural institutions. From native treasures to space exploration, world-class folk art to ancient dinosaurs, our favorite way to fully explore is with the New Mexico CulturePass.
To see everywhere CulturePass is accepted and reserve yours today, visit nmculture.org/visit/culture pass.
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