Who was Miguel Trujillo? In the Words of his Granddaughter

[Opening strum of Theme Music]

[00:00:00] Karen Waconda: You don’t harbor on the negativity. You always still wish them well. You know, leave them in a good way. Don’t carry the hardship. And that was my mom. You know, I come with her to problems and she said, “Just let it go. Don’t carry that.”

So as a woman and the way I am now as a mother, it’s like, okay, as long as I watch my actions and do well, you know, other people can have different perceptions and different beliefs or different attitudes. We can’t control that. It is what it is as long as we do our own in a good way. 

[00:00:38] Charlotte (VO): Hi folks, this is Encounter Culture, a podcast from the New Mexico Department of Cultural Affairs. I’m Charlotte Jusinski.

Stephanie (VO):  And I’m Stephanie Padilla. 

Charlotte (VO): If you’re joining Encounter Culture for the first time, we encourage you to go back one episode and start there for the full story. Then meet us right back here to keep going.

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[00:01:00] Charlotte (VO): To celebrate this season’s collaboration, we’d like to thank you for being part of our listening community at Encounter Culture.

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[Giveaway announcement ends. Theme music fades out. Hopi flute music fades in.]

[00:02:06] Stephanie (VO): In this episode, we learn how Miguel Trujillo’s life not only left a deep imprint on his community, but on his family as well. Here’s a more intimate oral history of who Miguel was as a husband, father, and grandfather. 

[00:02:21] Karen: You know, my life has involved so much around him and my grandma that now, as I become a grandparent, I feel more intertwined of what I’m doing with my grandchildren to the teachings that he’s done with me. 

[00:02:36] Stephanie (VO): This is Karen Waconda, Miguel Trujillo’s granddaughter.

[00:02:38] Karen: I have been initiated Healer, so that started way back with my grandfather and my grandmother in preparation of herbs and plants and flowers and minerals. And so I was able to receive teachings from them early on.

[00:02:55] Stephanie: So for how much of your life did you know your grandparents?

[00:03:00] Karen: Well, when he passed, I was 27, I believe. So I knew him quite a bit in my childhood and becoming an adult and followed, you know, very closely with him. Going to school, college, definitely changed my route of where my location, where I went was because of my grandpa. 

And you know, he had a stroke. And so going to New Mexico State, I purposely transferred to UNM after a family meeting. I didn’t want him to be in a facility, so I made sure I was very close to him and my grandparents and, you know, I was very lonely. 

You know, they would give me 10 cents, you know, in a letter and say, “Call.” And I would try to call them once a week on the weekend, and I just missed them so much.

[00:03:51] Stephanie: So was it your grandma and your grandpa that were involved with the traditional healings, or was it more your grandmother or your grandfather? 

[00:04:00] Karen: Well, actually both. They knew about traditional healing. However, in their era, it was to make sure we had an education and that’s what they pushed. 

And then it was my father, John Waconda, that reintroduced the traditional healing and made sure that we understood and had those teachings. And because of that, then it allowed an avenue for my grandfather and my grandmother to come in and teach me. 

However, even before that, I didn’t realize what they were teaching me in my early years, like, my grandfather was the first one to introduce me to minerals. I always had an interest in collection and I would get allowance and through them I would be writing letters to the mines. And I would have my grandfather and my grandmother proofread the letters to mines in Tanzania or you know, opals in Australia and say, “I’m attaching this money and I’m interested in receiving some minerals, Grandfathers, from you if you can send them. And, and I would get them. And so my grandfather would take me to mines across the southwestern part of the country and we go to the copper mines down south, turquoise. And you know, they took us to the Grand Canyon.

 And everywhere I would go, I would get the grandfathers and he would say, “Close your eyes. What do you feel? And what is the first message that comes?”

My grandmother did the same with plants, and we are, you know, she, oh, she was a florist. And with the teachings of my grandfather. And then I incorporated that with my grandmother, and then I became really close with flower essence remedies and how to prepare them and where does it affect it in the body or the mind, and more so when my grandfather had a stroke. Then my grandmother and I were preparing medicinal herbs and packs, and I would take them into the hospital, put warm packs on his arm that was paralyzed, massage and talk to it. And there was a doctor that came in and said, you know, you really ought to get a license.

So I did. So I also have a massage license. 

[00:06:19] Stephanie: It seems like they were both very invested in traditional healing and probably also ceremony. So where do you think education came into the picture from Miguel Trujillo? What do you think sparked that for him?

[00:06:32] Karen: I think for my grandpa, ‘cause he used to tell me stories where, when he was taken from his family home at Isleta, it was his mother, him, his sister, and half-brother.

And they came around the houses to take the children to Albuquerque Indian School, not very far from here. And he remembers that he hid underneath the bed so he wasn’t taken because his mother, then, would only have his half-brother to help her. Well, the half-brother didn’t have functional legs. I mean, he was crawling and, and could only use his hands. And so my grandpa knew about the hardship it would leave his mother. So he said he hid underneath the bed. 

Weeks later, they did another round to collect the children, and he was taken. And he told me that when he was taken, one night, he snuck out and walked back to Isleta. 

And to imagine, you know, possibly the fear in him and, you know, the concern for his mother and his responsibility to garden and have that, you know, just that care and concern.

Well, they came after him and of course, he was punished. He realized then that, “Wait a minute, this is when education can be used as a tool to be able to speak up.” So you’re taking somebody else’s tool and making it your own to benefit yourself and others.

So that’s why my grandfather always said, “Karen, if you’re gonna get a degree, get two degrees.”

So my first degree is in nutrition dietetics, and my second is in community health. But on top of that, I have a massage license. 

He said, “Always get a skill that nobody can take away from you. You know, have a skill that you really put a lot of passion to, and that will thrive you beyond because when you have a skill with that passion, it’s gonna make you move. It’s gonna have you to create.”

I did then, so I can rely, and to this day, I rely on all three of ’em right now. So he used education as a tool to benefit beyond, and he said he knew that at that moment, in that time, it was not gonna go away. We didn’t have any more choices. And to this day, he’s right. I mean, he’s exactly right. 

So I think that’s where he was able to use education and promote it. And then he became a principal and my grandma became a teacher. They started schools on the reservation. I was able to now see what tools they’ve used and how they create it.

I have plays in integrating, you know, old teachings to what they are now and how you don’t lose the old ways. Don’t forget who you are, but utilize it in a good way. 

[00:09:54] Stephanie: Did he say how old he was when he was taken to the boarding school?

[00:09:57] Karen: I think he was like 10… 9 or 10. So he was old enough. 

Stephanie: He was old enough but still young to have that realization of education can be used as a tool to better my people.

Karen: Correct. Yes. He utilized his own tool. You know, same thing happened, too, when my grandmother’s family, except for them, they were taken also to Carlisle. 

[00:10:20] Stephanie (VO): The United States government had a policy of promoting assimilation of American Indians. One way of doing that was removing Native children from their homes and sending them to boarding school sometimes far away from their tribes.

[00:10:32] Charlotte (VO): Carlisle Industrial School in Pennsylvania is probably the most famous of these boarding schools. Children arrived in their traditional clothing and were immediately put in the military uniforms and had their hair cut.

[00:10:47] Karen: And my husband and I, making a trip, we stopped there and saw some burial grounds of my grandmother’s sister. And, um, I have reports of their condition, you know, how was their physical condition and what number they were given. They were given numbers and you know, they were given English names that you know, he always went by his Indian name, and so that’s recorded on record too.

[00:11:14] Stephanie: Do you know whether he enjoyed his time at boarding school or if it was difficult for him?

[00:11:19] Karen: I know in the beginning it was difficult because, you know, he spoke Isleta language, but he became involved later on with sports like football and boxing, and that was his outlet. He was very good. He was very short and stout, so he became friends with several of the people, and in college, it was much later on in life when he was introduced to college.

In fact, he was the first Native American to graduate from the University of New Mexico. And to see his records of travel from Laguna, at that time, they were residing in Laguna, you know, imagine it was dirt roads and to travel and leave his family and attend school, and then being the only Native American.

And then travel back and do, you know, responsibilities to the family and the community, his job? I mean, what a man. What a man! He utilized every opportunity. That’s what he did.

[Hopi vocal music swells]

[00:12:52] Stephanie: I wanna shift a little bit to your grandmother. Can you tell us a bit more about her and what sparked her? Because it seems like she had a passion for education, as well. So can you tell us a little bit about that and how they worked together, maybe as a team? 

[00:13:06] Karen: So my grandmother, Ruchanda, her maiden name is Paisano, and she comes from Casablanca, which is a village in Laguna.

And she had a large family. Her family owned a store and her father and others were governors and received a cane. 

So she came up with a moving prominent family and they had received education through Carlisle. She went and she got a degree at Haskell and teaching, and she kept record of everything. 

[00:13:41] Stephani (VO): She is talking about Haskell Indian Nations University in Lawrence, Kansas, which started out as another boarding school in 1884, but today is a well-known university for Native students across the country to attend.

[00:13:54] Karen: Like, she wrote down everything in detail. In fact, she worked for the governor of New Mexico and kept record for the governor at that time. And it became that in the home to where organized and detailed, and my grandfather took pictures, so she organized pictures, you know, and my grandpa would have a library and she would, you know, allow that to grow because she knew the importance of education and books.

So they had a library in their house that they taught us how to check out books and how to do reports. And my grandmother was a writer. You know, she would write everything down and write stories, and so they really helped each other out. 

What I remember of them was beyond that education, was caring. And so at Christmas time we would set up sacks and sacks, and they had beds, and we would put ’em on the beds on the floors. And everybody would get, you know, a handful of nuts, a handful of candy, and she would keep note of who was in the nursing home and what tribe they were from. And we would stack the car up and go to the nursing homes, deliver them. We would go down to Isleta and visit all the relatives with little bags for Christmas and then come back.

So she was organizing all this. And my grandfather that was helping doing all this, so she was the backbone of organization, and today it has helped me. She cooked from scratch. I’m cooking from scratch. You know, she made her own yeast. I’m making my own yeast. I understand the importance of good health on a foundational level.

[00:15:43] Stephanie: So obviously you got that for your grandma, but do you think that’s also something that you learned from your mother? Can you tell us a bit about that?

[00:15:49] Karen: (laughs) My mom, Josephine, people say, I sound like her and I look like her, which is a compliment. Back then it wasn’t. And in fact, for Halloween, I would dress up like her and I look like her.

I mean, she’s my… she was my best, my best friend. But my mom always had a career and she was going to school as we were growing up, so it was my father that stayed behind to help clean up after the meals, or it was me and my sister preparing meals and washing dishes. 

My mother was studying. You know, we were taken care of very well, but she was getting her nursing degree. We would go with her to classes at UNM. And John, my brother, Larry, and I, we were touring UNM, you know, at a young age. We took swimming there and we’d go to Saggios. We would go to the library. My mother was busy. 

However, my mother and father also had acres of garden. We raised our own cattle, chickens, pigs. We would butcher. We would put up our own food and my grandma and grandpa would come down and help.

So it was an effort. I mean, I can’t imagine how my mom did all that work. And my father was the caretaker. I remember him lining our supplies up, you know, helping us fold our PE towels and with uniforms. And at one time, my dad was a bus driver, so you know, going to school, my with parents and he became a P.T.A. president. And my father, John, then was a coach. So they were always with us. As we grew up and my mother supported education, we saw it.

[00:17:46] Stephanie: That’s really neat. We had interviewed Gordon Bronitsky, as you know, and he talked about Josephine a lot, and he always has since the day that I, you know, reached out to him. He said, “I had promised Josephine that I would always talk about Miguel Trujillo when I could.”

[00:18:03] Charlotte (VO): You’ll remember Gordon from the last episode. 

[00:18:05] Gordon: Here’s what I want part of the record: Josephine Waconda, if you’re listening, I kept my promise and I’m still doing it. That’s what I want on the record. 

[Percussion music transition back to the interview]

[00:18:18] Stephanie: So it seems like Josephine and Mr. Trujillo might’ve had a really close bond. Would that be accurate? Or do you think everybody just had a close bond?

[00:18:26] Karen: My mother and her father, my grandpa, Miguel, they really had a close bond. There’s a gap in age between her and my uncle, Mike. So there was a time when they had one-on-one time. They had a child before my mother, Josephine, and my grandmother gave me the picture of Edith May. And she passed at the age of six or eight months, and I can’t even imagine losing a child.

They gave me the journal of my grandmother, you know, she had a diary, and I purposely did not read it until just a few years ago. And just guessing what it may be, there’s no doctors around. It’s miles from Laguna to Albuquerque. They did everything possible. And the child passed away. So to know that grief, and I believe there was three to four years difference before they had another child.

So my mom definitely was cared for. I mean, so was my uncle, but I only know the story of my mom. And I look back and it was my mom and I that cared for my grandpa when he had a stroke. You know, we would take turns and we would stay with my grandma and I learned how to transport and went to PT just to know how to feed him and care for him, bathe him. And we kept him at home the best way for several years. 

And now I look back when I visit the burial grounds, and they’re in Santa Fe, and how I feel with the loss of my parents, I can’t even imagine how she felt with the loss of her father. And he passed on the day before we were told our feast and our family were sponsors of the Feast Day. 

And I can’t even, I mean, I was at a big loss, but to know how close they are and to have my parents gone now and my mother carried a lot. And I wish I was there to be her companion on a deeper level. And I was there for them, you know, I was very close to my mom and dad and helped her with my dad. 

Then after that, we took a few trips and, but you know how much she was going through. I wish, as a woman, as a mother, as a daughter, I wish I was there for her on a level. 

[00:21:13] Stephanie: And it seems as though when you’re talking about your mother, I can also imagine that being the case for your grandmother. It seems like the women, you know, traditionally and Indigenous, they just carry a lot. 

Karen: Yeah. 

[00:21:46]  Stephanie: That’s beautiful. That’s amazing.

[Gentle flute music]

Stephanie: So I wanna talk about the case a little bit now. Did Miguel Trujillo ever talk to you about the case?

[00:21:53] Karen: He did. He did. He didn’t mention it much when we were really young. He started mentioning it to me when I became near the age to vote. So he walked me through. He drew out, like, an example of a ballot, what it’s gonna look like.

And I spent a lot of time with them. And so in their kitchen there was a TV in a sitting area, and we would watch the news and we would watch presidential elections and also the state elections and he would ask me to reiterate what they were saying. Like, “Okay, what did you hear from, you know, this presidential speech?”

And we would watch these debates. We would get the newspaper. We would start reviewing it, and he would then review it with me, say, “Okay, what did you learn from this? What rights are they fighting for? Is it environmental?” He was into school, so anything that had somebody doing something with teachers or school, school boards, he made sure to pay particular attention to that. 

Tribal too, we had to go through the tribe. Who do you know in the tribe… and that one is a little bit more difficult because you had to know about the family. You know, “Okay, which family do they come from and do they practice or do they believe in this? And what was their education?” 

So he wanted us to be prepared for when it came time for us to vote. And he went with me for my first voting. He stayed there with me and I remember it so well. And you know, afterwards he hugged me and we had a special dinner and then we stayed up late to see the elections, who won. And that was a routine. That was typical.

[00:23:50] Stephanie: At the time that you went to vote, or even before, when he was drawing out the ballot and everything, do you think that at your age you grasped what he had done for Native people in New Mexico?

[00:24:03] Karen: In some sense I did, but in a grander scale… No.

[00:24:10] Stephanie: I asked that because even if they did talk about it, at that age, I just feel like as a teenager you tend to be very like, oh, okay, whatever. 

(laughs)

But it seems like he was just a very… your whole family was just very humble about everything. So my guess is that your grandmother, Ruchanda never really talked about it either much. ,

Karen: No. 

Stephanie: Except for when he did, maybe.

[00:24:31] Karen: No, not at all. My grandma wasn’t that boastful about it. I mean, she was true to my grandfather. Yeah, no, they didn’t mention it very much. 

[00:24:48] Stephanie: So even though they didn’t mention it, did they ever talk about maybe what they had to do or what the process was like for Trujillo v Garley? 

[00:24:59] Karen: I can remember how much… well, my grandfather knew. He knew he was gonna lose and he knew it was gonna be for a long battle. 

I think the hardship that I remember that struck me the most was that some of the community members at Isleta or any Pueblo, you know, and family weren’t supportive of it.

You know, they didn’t want somebody to be so boastful to go against. And a lot of the Natives thought they were gonna be taxed, or their livelihood would be disrupted. 

Yes, there was a change in some sense. And you see that with any type of legal voting rights, there is a change and you hope for it that it’d be a better change. But for him, he didn’t know.

And so how could he communicate that to others in the community or even his family members? And how do you communicate that to a system that’s not aware of a system? 

So that’s one part I remember because it hurt me to not have that support from a family or a community. I mean, how would that feel for him?

So how does our family belong in this system? You know, and how are – how’s our family looked at? I mean, this is who we are. We love one another and we know who our cousins are and yet grandmothers may be against that. And what were they told? So it sort of left an uncertainty in my end. 

[00:26:41] Stephanie: How do you think your grandmother handled all of that?

[00:26:43] Karen: My grandmother was very quiet. My grandmother was very quiet. She didn’t have the emotional outbursts. She was a very calm woman. In fact, it was my grandma and my grandpa taught me about mindfulness practice, and I meditate and I’m a teacher around the country about mindfulness practice, but it stemmed from them.

So my grandmother, when she was cooking, she said, “You be very mindful when you stir. Be very mindful when you fold the clothes.” You know, she wouldn’t say the word “mindful,” but she would practice it and share with me, so she was very calm and nor expressed those words of hardship.

[Peaceful flute swells]

[00:27:49] Stephanie: So going back to what you said about your mother Josephine earlier and how much she had to carry, I imagine that your grandmother had a similar experience. But with the case, you know, people were sometimes against Miguel Trujillo and there was a lot of controversy, so, even if you don’t know from her, personally, how do you think she felt in those times when either Pueblo members or family members were essentially against what your grandfather was doing?

[00:28:23] Karen:  Mmm-hmmm. She always came across to where you don’t harbor on the negativity. And this is my mom, too. You always still wish them well, you know, leave them in a good way. Don’t carry that hardship. You know, I come with her to problems and she said, “Just let it go.” 

So as a woman and the way I am now as a mother, it’s like, okay, you know, as long as I watch my actions and do well, you know, other people can have different perceptions and different beliefs or different attitudes. We can’t control that. It is what it is, and as long as we do our own in a good way… 

[00:29:12] Stephanie: You make me wanna cry. 

It seems like Miguel and Ruchanda were teammates essentially at the school and as the teachers and educators, but when this case came around, I’m sure that they both had to put, you know, all hands on deck.

How do you think your grandma helped him behind the scenes while he was going through all of this? 

[00:29:32] Karen: Oh, I mean, she had a meal always. You know, and, and they weren’t just, we never had processed foods or, you know, it was a homemade meal, homemade bread. And so by having a good meal waiting for you, that’s a lot. That’s a lot. 

And by keeping track of the newspaper clippings on the court case, I mean, she wrote everything up and so, for him to come and not know what to do, the filing system, she did all that. 

I’m a single parent and, you know, I’m a widow and if somebody can file stuff for me or I can be greeted with a home cooked meal… Oh my gosh! Even that was just relieves so much. 

I mean, my grandpa, when I was upset, my grandpa would say, “Let’s, let’s go.” And I would go with him and he said, “Okay, let’s go get ice cream.” And then he’ll start saying, “What’s going on?” 

You know, he’ll go deeper as to what’s happening. He won’t let things settle down and, and let it go. He would want to know deeper what’s happening, why is it affecting you? What are alternatives that you could do? So he was helping me problem solve within myself first, and then problem solve outwardly. I mean, obviously this case, he had to do that so it didn’t affect him. You know, don’t act it out. Work on self first and then go beyond.

They taught me how to sweep, you know? Oh, he would mimic him sneezing and he would say, you know, “Sprinkle water,” and “This is how you sweep. Really feel that broom. Why do you think you’re feeling that broom?” 

I said, “I don’t know. It’s just, broom. I’m trying to get rid of this dirt.” 

He said, “No, go deeper. Picture that you’re, you know, sweeping Mother’s hair. That’s what we do at Laguna.”

It’s like, “Oh. Wow.” 

Or I’d be washing dishes. He said, “Oh my gosh, look at,” because we would watch Lawrence Welk. He said, “This is like Lawrence Welk in here.” And we’d laugh and he said, “You’re just just going so fast. I want you to feel that movement in there and really take care. These are plates your grandma brought in.” And so I would have to go slow. 

And to this day, I remember those stories about washing dishes and it’s a pleasure to do that. And so I’ve taught that to my daughter and hopefully to my granddaughter. Their teachings are multi, multi-level, layered, and that touches a core, a deep core.

So when I do things, I think of him, I think of my grandma, I think of possibly his mother or what he couldn’t have done for her and, later in life, what he was able to do later on. 

[00:32:41] Stephanie: This is reminding me there’s a quote that says people will forget what you did, but they won’t forget how they made you feel.

And I asked my grandma, I was like, “Do you know who Miguel Trujillo was?”

And she said, “Yeah, he used to visit your grandpa Ramon when he was sick in the hospital. And he would bring him something every time.” And I’ve heard that from multiple people, so it’s not only that he was an advocate for his people and a family man and an educator, but it seems like he was really involved in, just, community. 

[00:33:14] Karen: Yeah.

[Music swells]

[00:33:28] Charlotte: In the next episode of Encounter Culture…

[00:33:30] Dr. Maurice Crandall: It’s funny, you know, we talk about a filibuster or somebody getting up. It’s a political stunt in Western democracy to stand up and talk for hours, whereas in Indigenous democratic councils, it’s the norm. You might sit for days on end debating something, talking about it. Everyone says their piece. And then ultimately, when there’s a consensus, people can take a decision, and it’s not the will of any one person. It’s a community decision.

[Season Outro. Theme music fades in.]

Charlotte (VO): Encounter Culture is a production of the New Mexico Department of Cultural Affairs. This season was produced in collaboration with the New Mexico History Museum with a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities. 

Stephanie (VO): We are especially grateful to the family of Miguel and Ruchanda Trujillo, and to the Indian Pueblo Cultural Center.

Charlotte (VO): Our show’s producer is Andrea Klunder at The Creative Impostor Studios. 

Stephanie (VO): Season 4 is produced and edited by Alex Riegler, Monica Braine, and Andrea Klunder. 

Charlotte (VO): Our recording engineer is Kabby at Kabby Sound Studios in Santa Fe. 

Stephanie (VO): Post-production audio by Edwin R. Ruiz. 

Charlotte (VO): Show notes by Lisa Widder and social media design by Caitlin Sunderland.

Stephanie (VO): Our executive producer is Daniel Zillmann. 

Charlotte (VO): Thank you to New Mexico artist, El Brujo, D’Santi Nava for our theme music. And to Clark Tenakhongva, Gary Stroutsos, and Matthew Nelson for the incredible Hopi music featured throughout all six episodes of this season. Their new album is set to release in August 2023, and will be available for purchase on Bandcamp and at ongtupqa.com. We’ve included the links for you in the show notes.

Stephanie (VO): For a full transcript and show notes, visit podcast.nmculture.org or click the link in the episode description in your listening app. 

Charlotte (VO): I’m your host, Charlotte Jusinski. 

Stephanie (VO): And I’m your co-host, Stephanie Padilla.

Charlotte (VO): The Mexico Department of Cultural Affairs is your hub for the state’s exceptional museums, historic sites, and cultural institutions. 

Stephanie (VO): From Native treasures to space exploration, world class folk art to awesome dinosaurs, we celebrate the essence of New Mexico every day. 

Charlotte (VO): Remember to head to podcast.nmculture.org/giveaway to enter to win four culture passes and a subscription to El Palacio. Enter before August 31st, 2023. Thanks for listening.

[Theme music fades out.]